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Benefits and Perks
Dear HBR: answers your questions with the help of PwC chief people officer Mike Fenlon.
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Are you taking full advantage of your job’s benefits and perks? In this episode of HBR’s advice podcast, Dear HBR:, cohosts Alison Beard and Dan McGinn answer your questions with the help of PwC chief people officer Mike Fenlon. They talk through what to do when you’re deciding between freelancing and a staff position with benefits, you want your company to offer a new perk, or your job makes it hard to use your vacation days.
Listen to more episodes and find out how to subscribe on the Dear HBR: page. Email your questions about your workplace dilemmas to Dan and Alison at dearhbr@hbr.org.
From Alison and Dan’s reading list for this episode:
HBR: The Most Desirable Employee Benefits by Kerry Jones — “In today’s hiring market, a generous benefits package is essential for attracting and retaining top talent. According to Glassdoor’s 2015 Employment Confidence Survey, about 60% of people report that benefits and perks are a major factor in considering whether to accept a job offer. The survey also found that 80% of employees would choose additional benefits over a pay raise.”
HBR: Thriving in the Gig Economy by Gianpiero Petriglieri, Susan J. Ashford, and Amy Wrzesniewski — “Approximately 150 million workers in North America and Western Europe have left the relatively stable confines of organizational life — sometimes by choice, sometimes not — to work as independent contractors. Some of this growth reflects the emergence of ride-hailing and task-oriented service platforms, but a recent report by McKinsey found that knowledge-intensive industries and creative occupations are the largest and fastest-growing segments of the freelance economy.”
HBR: How to Minimize Stress Before, During, and After Your Vacation by Tristan Elizabeth Gribbin — “It’s a Catch-22 millions of workers face: You plan a vacation to relax, rejuvenate, and forget all about the stresses of work. But being out of the office means cramming in extra work up until you leave — and making up for lost time once you return. So perhaps it’s little surprise that a study in the Netherlands found vacationers are no happier than non-vacationers after a break.”
HBR: A Winning Parental Leave Policy Can Be Surprisingly Simple by Hilary Rau and Joan C. Williams — “Paid leave is a powerful tool for recruiting and retaining top talent — if it sends a strong signal that a company values its employees and is committed to equity and diversity in the workplace. Employers can avoid undercutting this powerful message by making sure that their paid leave policy applies equally to all new parents — mothers and fathers, biological and adoptive, LGBT, salaried and hourly — without requiring that employees first prove themselves to be primary caregivers.”
DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating. But it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.
DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Today we’re talking about benefits with Mike Fenlon. He’s the chief people officer at PWC. Mike, thanks so much for coming in.
MIKE FENLON: Alison, thank you. It’s great to be here.
ALISON BEARD: What benefits are people most interested in getting from their employers nowadays?
MIKE FENLON: Just like every other aspect of business, benefits are evolving, too. And it’s important to think, today maybe more than ever, of the complete picture of what you’re getting from your employer.
DAN MCGINN: It seems like people are becoming much more vocal if they think their company isn’t offering the right kind of benefits. Is that something you’re seeing?
MIKE FENLON: Absolutely. You know, it goes to a broader point around, am I going to work for an organization that understands, I actually do have a life outside of this place? It’s also about competing for talent, too. Right? There’s a market obviously for talent. So as an employer, you’ve got to make sure that you’re being competitive.
ALISON BEARD: You obviously want to offer as much as you can, but all of that comes with a cost. So how do you weight the cost and benefits?
MIKE FENLON: These are investments, so they have returns. And part of the returns are reflected in your ability to attract the very best talent, but it’s also about retaining, creating an environment and a set of total rewards that keep people motivated, engaged, and really sustain commitment. And also reflect a recognition that what’s relevant at one stage in your life is going to change and evolve.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m a project manager with ten years of experience. I’ve worked as a full-time employee in a few organizations, but earlier this year I decided to work as a freelance project manager. I’m making good progress in my new endeavor. Being freelance is exciting and giving me the opportunity to work in different companies. Here’s the question. My current client will soon advertise a permanent leadership type position to lead the small project management team that I’m on. I’m thinking hard about applying. My skill set suits the position very well. I’d be inspired to be a professional leader rather than a technical project manager. I’m enjoying the company culture. And of course, being a full-time employee will give me low-cost access to health insurance, a better retirement plan and paid vacation, all the perks and benefits that aren’t in place for self-employed workers. However, the salary of the leadership position will not be as high as what I make as a freelancer. I’m torn. Job security has never been my concern or priority. Maybe I should stay a freelance project manager to gain more experience in different companies, and to be more stable financially. That would mean giving up the leadership opportunity and waiting for something bigger and better in the future. I keep going back and forth. Should I keep freelancing, or should I go for the leadership position and all the benefits that come with it?
MIKE FENLON: I love this question. You know, if we were sitting here ten years ago, of course, you’ve got to take the full-time job. Are you out of your mind? Today, it’s a very different conversation. Right? So the freelance economy, the gig economy is a very, very big, growing thing. This listener is saying, if I continue to stay as a freelancer, actually, it’s more stable in terms of income.
ALISON BEARD: When he’s talking about his finances, is he underestimating the value of all the benefits that he’ll get by being a full-time employee?
MIKE FENLON: So if I’m the prosecution here, if I’m making the case for full-time employment, I’m going to really argue for the full package of benefits, the stability, but I’m really going to focus on what you’re going to learn and how you will grow.
DAN MCGINN: When I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about my own benefits package and whether or not I was correctly assessing the value of it. And I actually started looking up like what my health insurance costs my employer, and I started thinking about how many weeks of vacation, and how does that translate? And it was a bigger number than I would have expected. Is there some rule of thumb in the HR community about what percentage of someone’s total salary on top of that the benefits cost? Like it’s an extra 20% or 30%? Is there some number that people use?
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, Dan, you know, it really does vary by country, but I think the more important, point, Dan, is what you said. Take a look at what you’re getting. Those are your total rewards. It’s very easy not to monetize those benefits, and when you factor that total package in, it can be quite compelling. On the other hand, because then you say, well, in such a hot economy, why would anyone want to be a freelancer, then? And again, these are people who don’t want full-time jobs. They really value the autonomy. They really value the flexibility. They value being in some ways their own boss. And just having a larger sense of control over the kind of work they do. Autonomy is one of the most powerful predictors of job satisfaction. For some freelancers, that’s something that they really want to optimize, and they’re prepared to do without some of those other benefits.
ALISON BEARD: Our letter writer seems as if he is interested in developing his leadership skills. Right? So my question is, is he better off doing that at this company now? Because he talks about waiting for bigger and better opportunities. But will those come if he doesn’t get managerial experience right away.
MIKE FENLON: One thing I’d like the listener to really carefully consider and assess is how am I building my toolkit, my value to these organizations through the project, the freelance work I’m doing today? So in this digital data-driven economy, where skill sets have a very short half-life, the risk of being the freelancer is, you’re just, it’s kind of Groundhog Day. You’re being given the same projects again and again and again, playing to your toolkit. The question for the listener is, am I building my toolkit by doing those projects? Maybe I am. But there’s also a personal question here, too. You know, some freelancers tell us, you know, I love doing what I do. I’m really not interested in all the headaches of managing people. So there’s a personal element here, too, around the kind of work that really energizes the listener, and that they really want to invest in.
DAN MCGINN: In the US, we’re in a really, really tight labor market right now, which is partly why firms are hiring freelancers because there’s just not enough labor out there. Do you worry that he’s too confident about his business holding up if the economy turns? And that freelancing will be stable no matter what the economic cycle?
MIKE FENLON: Our forecasts see freelance work as a percentage of the labor market increasing. For many large organizations and just organizations overall, freelancers have become an established part of the workforce. In an economy that’s going to be increasingly digital, where work can be disaggregated from geography, and it can be done anywhere at any time, I believe this freelance economy’s going to grow.
ALISON BEARD: what you just said made me wonder if there’s a middle ground here. Could he apply for this leadership opportunity, but then sort of engage his desire for different types of projects by having a side hustle?
MIKE FENLON: Well, you know, it’s interesting. And when I was listening to the question, there’s also value in going through an interview process to clarify, to crystalize your own interests. The listener’s also assessing the employer. And in some respects, it’s a no regrets move to have some conversations and to really deepen my understanding of what the role is. At the same time, I’m marketing myself. I’m building my own network within that company. And I’m helping them understand what I bring to the table.
DAN MCGINN: But if they want to hire him, and then he decides it’s not the right fit for him, isn’t that going to make him lose a client?
MIKE FENLON: Not necessarily. It really depends on how I manage those conversations. And it could have the exact opposite, where, you know, at this time, as much as I love the opportunity, I want to continue working as a freelancer, but I’ve become only more motivated to work with you as I’ve learned more about your company.
DAN MCGINN: It’s also possible the company might raise the salary on the position if the person you’re currently paying a high freelance rate to do it wants to apply for it. They’d have some visibility into the idea that he might actually be taking a pay cut to do this, and maybe they could adjust that a little bit.
MIKE FENLON: Certainly, I agree, Dan. And that has to be part of the conversation, and they’ll have a point of view in initially around what the market value of the role will be. But as they learn about he’s bringing to the table it could move the needle.
DAN MCGINN: I wondered if there’s a case to be made that our listener might want to spend just a little bit of time and a little bit of money talking with a financial planner, just to take a look at what benefits might bring to his financial life that he doesn’t recognize.
MIKE FENLON: I agree, Dan. I think the listener owes it to himself to do that, to carefully quantify and monetize that total package of benefits. But I want to add another thing into the mix here. I really want to the listener to carefully assess the opportunity with the full-time role of the skills, the knowledge, the experiences that they’re going to acquire. And is this employer going to invest in my development in ways that will only continue to make me more valuable, continue to make me relevant?
ALISON BEARD: So I think that gets back to, you know, is he more interested in learning new skills through the project work, or learning to lead at this company?
MIKE FENLON: I think that’s right. And there’s a personal choice there in terms of the kind of work that energizes him. There’s a market choice in terms of continuing to stay relevant and stretch and develop and make sure I’m positioned for the future. So there’s not really a right or wrong answer, but I think what we want to make sure is that the listener is doing what he owes to himself in terms of carefully assessing what each offers. Understanding that freelance work today is a real option, and for many people, it’s the one they’re choosing freely, not because they can’t find a job.
ALISON BEARD: So Dan, what are we telling him?
DAN MCGINN: So there’s a few parts to this question. We think when it comes to the benefits piece of it, the fact that if he takes the corporate job, he will get access to health insurance and a retirement account and all that kind of thing. He can put a dollar value on that. He can figure out how much extra that will be on top of the salary they might be offering him. We think it might be worth having a conversation with a financial planner to see whether some of those things that they would offer are things that he’s currently lacking now that he might benefit from. But we think the benefits piece of this is only one part, and maybe even a small part of the consideration. He needs to think a lot about what skills he’s developing as a freelancer and what skills he would develop if he took this leadership role inside the company. Which is going to put him on a better learning curve and better position him for growth as the economy changes. We think he needs to think about whether he’s going to be happier as an individual contributor, as he is now, or whether he really wants to lead people. We also think he should interview for the job. It will be a great way for him to clarify his values, what kind of position he wants, and to build his network inside the firm. Finally, if he thinks that freelancing is the way to go, he should rest assured that it’s a growing part of the economy, and it’s probably going to continue to grow, even if the economy does soften, and the labor markets change.
ALISON BEARD: OK, let’s go to our second question. Dear HBR: I work for a family business in the insurance sector. The father is the president, and one of his sons is my boss in the marketing department. I really enjoy working for them. I’m a 28-year-old woman, and the youngest person to have an office and a title here. I’ve been with the company for nearly two years and don’t want to leave. But we’re having some growing pains. My boss has some great ideas on how to take the company forward. He wants to develop our brand, attract outside talent and win new business. Right now, we do a lot of work for friends and associates of the family, and he wants to get away from that. But it’s tough. I believe we’re at a crossroads. One path is becoming a more modern company, paying more attention to our culture, brand standards and benefits that will appeal to younger employees. We currently have neither parental leave nor company contributions to our individual retirement plans. The other path is to keep things as they are. That’s what legacy employees want. For a Millennial, I think I’m pretty traditional. I’ve never demanded conference rooms to do yoga or a ping pong table. But there is a huge chasm between what management thinks is the mindset, morale and eventual future of their family company and what it’s really like out there. It’s important to me to maintain peace, build towards consensus and not appear disrespectful to senior employees. Do I abandon that and confront this head on? Or is there another way?
MIKE FENLON: Well, a lot of dynamics there going on in a family business. First, the good news is, the listen shared that her boss actually has spearheaded change and innovation and new ways of doing things. So there are some grounds for optimism here, it seems to me, and there’s a question of how she can contribute to maybe some stretching thinking in the areas that she’s concerned about now.
DAN MCGINN: So she’s unhappy with the benefits that the company’s offering. That’s sort of the crux of the problem here. In that situation, how does one most effectively advocate for an improvement in the overall package and the specific things she seems most interested in, like that retirement account?
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, well, first, she appreciates the fact that her boss is someone who has been open to new ideas and is driving change in this family-run company. I think there’s a simple way of asking him by starting with just how much she’s appreciated the changes she’s seen. I’ve got some additional ideas that I think will make us more competitive as well in terms of attracting talent and being able to keep talent here. Are you open to those ideas?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, and I think she could come to that conversation armed with data. Right?
MIKE FENLON: That’s right.
ALISON BEARD: There are plentiful surveys about the sorts of benefits that people are looking for and expect. But in a family business, that comes with a big cost. Right? So if it’s a small company, they can’t afford to offer the types of benefits that PWC does. So how does she tackle that?
MIKE FENLON: Yeah. So it’s got to be tied to outcomes, not just because it’s a nice to have. If it’s a specific benefit around, let’s say, matching a retirement plan, how will that tie specifically to some pain we’re experiencing? How will it help us grow our business? How will it help us keep talent that maybe we’re struggling to keep or attract? Some fresh talent?
DAN MCGINN: She speaks a little bit dismissively of the ping pong table, the yoga room, these nice to have kind of hip amenities, not really benefits. I don’t sort of think of a ping pong table, which I should note, we have one down the hall. [LAUGHTER] It would be a little noisy if we were —
MIKE FENLON: We have a foosball table.
DAN MCGINN: You have a foosball table?
MIKE FENLON: We do, in the office.
ALISON BEARD: Well, I think the interesting thing about those types of things is that they’re cheap, so it’s easy for companies to put in a ping pong table. It’s a lot harder for them to say, right, every person who has a baby, men and women, are going to get three months paid leave.
DAN MCGINN: Yeah, there was a book a couple of years ago called, Disrupted, by the writer, Dan Lyons. Who worked at a tech firm, and they had a wall with all sorts of different kinds of candy on it that was given free to employees. And the 20 somethings that worked there all thought that this was fantastic. But they didn’t really have a great 401(k) plan. He’s like, you know, when you’re my age, you start to worry about the 401(k), and the free candy’s not such a great thing after all. So the expense of these and the utility for different kinds of people does seem like an issue.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. And I do wonder, going back to what you were saying, Mike. How do you prove ROI on these sorts of things?
MIKE FENLON: You know, Alison, you mentioned data. There’s a place for that. But it’s also about voice and really understanding what matters most to your people or the kinds of people you want to bring into your company. And there’s no substitute for actually hearing that voice.
ALISON BEARD: Well, it would be great if she had anecdotes like, well, such and such job candidate didn’t come because they were offered a better package at this other company. Or so and so, who was one of our star performers, left because she really needed parental leave.
DAN MCGINN: We did a piece in the magazine a couple of years ago by the CEO of a firm called Kronos. Kronos had a very traditional kind of vacation plan, where if you were a new employee, you’d get two weeks, if you were there for five years, you’d get three weeks. The company grew, and they wanted to hire a lot of mid-career people. The mid-career people they all wanted to hire had been at other firms for a long time, and they already had four or five weeks of vacation, and none of them would come over to a two-week vacation kind of deal. They recognized that the deal breaker for them was the vacation policy, so they changed it. So I think the idea that we’re trying to hire person X, and this was the thing that made us not get him. If you can kind of amass some examples of that, that can be pretty compelling.
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, I agree. I mean, that’s the point that’s so, there’s a place for data. This is a real cost. It’s an investment. So what is the return? But personalizing that, including the kinds of people we may be missing out on today.
DAN MCGINN: I know firms that have tens of thousands of employees usually do a lot of surveying and get a very data-rich kind of look at this. It seems like this almost might be a disadvantage that this firm is smaller, not just because of the cost involved, but also because it’s going to see kind of anecdotal. If you’ve only got 40 or 50 employees, does a survey really feel that convincing? OK, seven people want this. It’s seven people. You know, I think it’s sort of the disadvantage of small numbers in this case.
ALISON BEARD: I think you can’t discount, though, a really strong proposal for what the company should have. Should she go ahead and start building that proposal?
MIKE FENLON: Absolutely. I think that would help make the case. But it’s part of a broader conversation around how this business has to continue to evolve. The world’s changed. Expectations are changing. And if you want to build your ability to attract the kind of talent that will help this business grow and really serve their customers, there well may be a business case here for these benefits.
DAN MCGINN: What if she takes this proposal to management, and they say, we see your point. It just costs too much. Our business economics don’t support this.
MIKE FENLON: So at the end of the day, if she’s made the case as best as she can in terms of the business case, quantifying it with data, bringing it alive with stories, examples, and she’s still not successful, then she’s going to have to make a decision. It’s as simple as that. And that decision will perhaps crystalize for the management of this family owned business whether they should change or not. She may want to leave.
ALISON BEARD: Is she discounting the fact, though, that she is a manager at age 28? She’s getting access to senior leaders and strategic decisions in a way that she wouldn’t if she just worked for a big firm that offers lots and lots of benefits?
MIKE FENLON: Well, that’s no doubt part of the calculus.
DAN MCGINN: So Alison, what’s our advice?
ALISON BEARD: So the good news is that she seems to have an ally in her boss. We think that she should go to him and make a case for the initiatives that she thinks are important in terms of changing the culture at the company and attracting talent. She should be armed with data about what the current employees want and what the type of people they want to draw in need. She should have persuasive stories, and she should have a strong proposal for what the company should offer. If she presents this and senses that they’re not behind it, she should realize that maybe at a family business they can’t afford it, and also they’re very sensitive about changing too quickly. And then she’ll just need to decide whether it’s a place she wants to stay because she’s learning and developing, or if she’d prefer to go to a company that is more forward thinking.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m a manager in a manufacturing plant. I like my job, but I’m facing a big issue. Despite my best efforts, it always feels like there’s a big cost to taking vacation time. I was on vacation for three days last week. I’m still climbing out from under all the email and missed action items that need attention. I can delegate some things to folks to keep the business running but following up on the emails is a real challenge. It’s not just me. One of my subordinates told me he worked almost 12 hours today just so he would feel comfortable taking tomorrow off. One solution is for me to keep on top of email when I’m gone. But that prevents me from fully unplugging. Otherwise, I have to work additional hours after I get back to the office. Vacation is a benefit, just like healthcare or a company retirement plan. It’s not fair that the demands I face don’t go away when I’m using this paid time off. How can I make it less painful to fully use my vacation benefit?
MIKE FENLON: That’s a great question. So many of us feel like, when I go on vacation, just let me take my vacation. And you know, we’re in a non-stop, always-on world. It’s become a big issue, a big challenge.
ALISON BEARD: It seems to me that this is a problem of culture, rather than something he might be able to handle himself. But how does one employee go about changing the way all of their colleagues work?
MIKE FENLON: So Alison, I think one thing this letter writer could think about first of all is, how are they working with their team? So not just individually here, but how could I engage my teammates in all of us planning and working together with enough time and forward planning, so we can create protected time.
DAN MCGINN: Mike, your advice that this is all about the team and the workload resonates with me. Usually, I work remote on Fridays, but we came in because Alison is going skiing in Idaho next week. [LAUGHTER] So her decision to take her time off is having an impact on me. I saw one statistic that last year 54% of American workers left vacation time unused because of this exact issue. I can’t get away. There’s too much work. I’ll be penalized when I come back by just having to chip through it all. So there are costs to this.
MIKE FENLON: It’s huge.
ALISON BEARD: Not to keep it on me, but I have emailed colleagues and said, don’t worry, I’ll still be checking email if you need me to edit that while I’m gone. I can do it. How do you break yourself of doing that when you feel like you’re letting people down if the work just stops while you’re away?
MIKE FENLON: Yeah. Listen, I don’t think there’s a simple answer to this. But I also think it’s important for you, Alison, to have some disconnected time to recharge. So there’s one vision of that vacation where you’re on those ski slopes, maybe you’re up at the top of the mountain, waiting to go down, and you’ve got your cell phone, and it’s going off. One thing we’ve got to recognize, that it’s actually really important that you do get time to disconnect.
ALISON BEARD: So our letter writer is accurate, that he needs that unplugged time.
MIKE FENLON: He’s more than accurate. It’s essential. And by the way, we often don’t do our most creative work sitting and staring at our desk trying to think through a problem. Often times those issues are sort of percolating. And having that kind of time away actually allows you to think in deeper and more creative ways as well. You know, there may be issues that this letter writer or for you, that you decide, you know, actually, there’s some time-sensitive matters I’m just going to have to weigh in on. But better for that to be an explicit, transparent kind of decision, versus an implicit expectation that you’re going to respond in a nanosecond to any email, even if you’re on vacation.
DAN MCGINN: I used to work at a company. They actually used it as a development and training tool. So when my boss would go on vacation, they would be gone, and I wouldn’t hear from them, and I would step up a level and do that person’s job for a week. We’d actually, it was a strange situation. We’d actually sit in their office. I would move offices. I would go sit in my boss’s office. I would go that job for a week, and then they would come back. And I think the smartphones and the always-on connectivity have made that a little less practical. But I found it a great experience that I was able to step up like that.
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, I think that’s terrific. It goes to a bigger issue around autonomy. Vacations can recharge and give other people opportunities to exercise, just as you were describing, their own judgment, stretch, and so it’s not just teamwork, but it’s development.
ALISON BEARD: Again, though, that sounds like something bigger than his pay grade. You know, he is a manager, so he can put in policies on his team, but if he’s trying to change how the organization operates, how does he begin to do that?
MIKE FENLON: Alison, I think that’s a real-world question. I think you could start by trying to find some coconspirators. Find some people that you’re working with on your team and bring up the topic. Bring up the issue. Guaranteed, you’re not the only one who wants to take a good vacation.
DAN MCGINN: How much of this can be addressed by simple tools and techniques? And let me give a specific example. We ran a piece on our website last year by Ariana Huffington, who runs a firm called Thrive Global. And instead of just sending our normal out of office messages, I’m on vacation, I’ll be back on September 17th, they have a system where, if you email somebody that’s on vacation, it says, I’m on vacation until September 17th. This email is being deleted. If it’s so important, email me back after I’m back at work. Strange system, but the whole company uses it. It’s become their cultural norm. And it’s really effective. You don’t need to deal with your email when you come back, because it’s been deleted, and It’s going to come again if it’s important. And most of it doesn’t.
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting example. I think we all know that might not work in every organization, every business.
DAN MCGINN: It sounds like you have clients just like our listener has customers of the factory he works in.
MIKE FENLON: Exactly. And we have people who are depending on us, and sometimes for time-sensitive issues, just like the listener. So there is no single solution here.
ALISON BEARD: The advice that I found most helpful, personally, is this idea of explaining what you’re doing. And that way, whether it’s an internal colleague or an external colleague, if you say, I’m celebrating my 10th anniversary with my husband, and we’re taking our two children to the beach, I hope you’ll understand if I don’t respond to you for a week. But I have a colleague here who can help you. I think that will make people less angry if they don’t receive an immediate response.
MIKE FENLON: And that was in your, the actual out of office message, you’re saying?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, mm hm.
MIKE FENLON: Yeah, I agree with you when you personalize it. And we actually, just my team recently, we had a contest, a vacation contest for people who could come up with the funniest out of office messages. It was anchored in actual personal examples of what they were doing. Now, the other thing that you said I feel like I can do that. I have kids. I have a family. Oh, sure, of course, we have to respect your vacation time. Well, what if I don’t? What if I don’t have kids? What if my interests are different? And it’s really important as well as part of this discussion I’m describing, this teamwork that I’m encouraging our listener to think about how they might translate, there’s no value judgment here. Right? And it’s your time.
ALISON BEARD: It’s OK to say, I’m taking three days of hiking in the mountains by myself to recharge.
MIKE FENLON: There’s no value judgment, and your time is your time, and it’s not, maybe because I have kids, it’s not as if my time is more important or it’s more valid, that I need to have that kind of vacation.
DAN MCGINN: So this may sound a little bit harsh, but I have a little different view on some of this. This guy’s a manager. He’s got a big team reporting to him. It sounds like he’s pretty senior in this manufacturing facility. At a certain level of pay and responsibility, you’re going to have to get the work done, and there’s not going to be an easy solution to this. I would argue that some of this is a personal decision. Would you rather chip away at a little bit at your work during your vacation to avoid coming back to that mountain? Or do you want to try to dial out, knowing that you’re going to face a punishing workload when you get back?
ALISON BEARD: I feel like our letter writer might benefit from compartmentalizing in the way you suggested, you know, saying, I do really want to unplug, but there are certain emails that need to get answered. So a half an hour each day at X time, I will handle it.
MIKE FENLON: I agree. And I think, again, there is no one solution here. You’ve got to figure out what works in your culture, in your organization, in your role. And then take some personal responsibility for the planning and the communication and building shared expectations.
ALISON BEARD: So we talked about bringing together the team, figuring out ways to cover for each other, finding coconspirators in the organization. But what if there isn’t anyone else who can do his specific job?
MIKE FENLON: Well, now I think we’ve got a different issue. Don’t we? Because that kind of goes to the, you know, for our listener, am I developing the skills of my team members, of the people who report to me? Because if I’m not helping them develop the skills ready to take on my role, that’s in some ways a bigger issue, but it’s now creating a point where I can’t separate at all.
ALISON BEARD: So the vacation issue is a symptom of a broader problem.
MIKE FENLON: Precisely. I think that’s right. And that’s something I want the listener to think about. What are the root issues here?
ALISON BEARD: Right. So Dan, what are we telling our plant manager?
DAN MCGINN: We’re telling him that this is largely a cultural issue. This is not something he’s going to be able to change on his own. He can’t be the hero here. This needs to be a social, team solution. He can talk to his bosses about it. He can talk to his subordinates and try to change his subordinates’ behavior, because he is their manager, and he tells them, look, I don’t want you dealing with email while you’re on vacation, that will start to change the norm within the company. He should try to talk about the benefits of fully unplugging during a vacation and recharging and giving time for creativity and blank slate thinking. He should think about the developmental opportunities of giving the work to his subordinates. They will learn and grow if they’re doing some of his work while he’s on vacation. It will help prepare them for their next job, and it’s a good thing for everybody. He also can use techniques like the out of office email. If he can be specific about when he’ll be back, if he can say exactly what issues should go to which subordinate, that might reduce the amount of email he comes back to on vacation.
ALISON BEARD: Mike, thank you so much for coming in today.
MIKE FENLON: Thank you, Alison and Dan.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Mike Fenlon. He’s the Chief People Officer of PWC.
DAN MCGINN: Thanks to the listeners who wrote us with their questions. Now we want to know your question. Send us an email with your workplace challenge and how we can help. The email address is DearHBR@hbr.org.
ALISON BEARD: We also want to thank Louis Weeks and Nick DePrey for composing our theme music. On our next episode, we’re going to be talking to David DeSteno about overcoming negativity.
DAN MCGINN: To get that episode automatically, please subscribe. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Thanks for listening to Dear HBR:.