IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 20th, 2009

tacone1oiaohm: he's referring to the voice/video browser pluginJul 20 00:00
notzedtacon1: ahh ok, interestingJul 20 00:00
ThistleWebthere should be a Jabber client called Jiibber Jabber, promoted by BA BaracasJul 20 00:00
ThistleWeb"stop yo jibba jabba foo"Jul 20 00:00
oiaohmThat bit of evil.Jul 20 00:00
ThistleWeb"and I still ain't gettin' on no plane"Jul 20 00:00
sebsebsebChrome OS next year, but  will  it  help Linux  gain  it's market share back on the netbooks, is the big questionJul 20 00:01
Diablo-D3woah shit.....Jul 20 00:01
tacone1chrome os will help in many waysJul 20 00:01
Diablo-D3vuescan is available on linuxJul 20 00:01
sebsebsebDiablo-D3: what's that?Jul 20 00:01
tacone1it will also give linux first grade chromium browser supportJul 20 00:01
oiaohmChrome OS work is designed to get on top of the browser plugin problem.Jul 20 00:01
ThistleWebyep chrome will be good for linuxJul 20 00:01
Diablo-D3sebsebseb: really popular third party scanner softwareJul 20 00:01
Diablo-D3sebsebseb: its really really niceJul 20 00:01
sebsebsebDiablo-D3: virus scanner?Jul 20 00:01
oiaohmChrome was never ment to be come a major browser.Jul 20 00:01
oiaohmIts basically another Linux.Jul 20 00:02
tacone1google doesn't love windows and while loving macosx they don't work on itJul 20 00:02
oiaohmIt was just for fun.Jul 20 00:02
Diablo-D3sebsebseb: no, scanner scannerJul 20 00:02
sebsebsebah okJul 20 00:02
sebsebsebwell that's goodJul 20 00:02
Diablo-D3sebsebseb: you know, giant box with a glass plate in it that you put pictures on to scan withJul 20 00:02
notzedi wonder how far the 'chromeos' desktop will go it alone.  be interesting if they can achieve what gnome/kde have been faffing about with for years in a lot lessJul 20 00:02
sebsebsebDiablo-D3: heh of course I know what a scanner is :)Jul 20 00:03
oiaohmchrome os is not really targeted to destroy kde and gnome.Jul 20 00:03
sebsebsebeww KDE4Jul 20 00:03
sebsebsebexcept some of the apps that I run in GnomeJul 20 00:03
ThistleWebright now Google have money to burn, so it may be the right time to try if they plan on that outcomeJul 20 00:03
sebsebsebKDE 3 :)  Long live KDE 3!Jul 20 00:03
oiaohmchrome os is targeted at cross platform applications.Jul 20 00:03
oiaohmAfter some tweeks KDE 4 is not bad.Jul 20 00:03
ThistleWebif anything they will go for a new WM customised for their needsJul 20 00:04
oiaohmchrome os will be another competitor in the java vs net battle.Jul 20 00:04
notzedi'm talking about it from the developer perspective.  gnome & kde are such a waste of duplicated effort again and again and crappy solutions over and over again.Jul 20 00:04
tacone1oiaohm: java ??Jul 20 00:04
sebsebsebI am still annoyeed with   Ubuntu 9.04's   Gnome which dosn't follow upstream Gnome properly,  hence  removing a feature that really should be there still etcJul 20 00:04
oiaohmGoal of chrome os is to allow native binaries to be downloaded from a web site and run securely to operate a web application.Jul 20 00:05
oiaohmBasically the same thing java bytecode promised and .net tries to promise.Jul 20 00:05
notzednative?  really?  isn't the whole point the javascript vm?Jul 20 00:05
sebsebsebnotzed: KDE 3 :)   if they carried on improving that,  instead of making that KDE4 thing, I would have been pretty happy :)Jul 20 00:06
oiaohmI mean truly native no need to use javascript notzedJul 20 00:06
oiaohmIe x86 for x86 processes arm for arm process...Jul 20 00:06
Aondosebsebseb, sometimes things are messed up and needs to start from scratch :DJul 20 00:06
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sebsebsebAondo: KDE 4 is   horrible by defaultJul 20 00:06
sebsebsebAondo: compared to most  KDE 3's,  it will depend on the distro to some exent with KDE 3Jul 20 00:06
Aondosebsebseb, it's like a teenager then... pretty horrible :PJul 20 00:07
ThistleWebwhat we will see with Chrome OS is a lot of ARM netbooks that MS can't pay to be wiped and installed with Windows because Windows won't work on themJul 20 00:07
sebsebsebAondo: dependsJul 20 00:07
Aondosebsebseb  it is still new, i like it thought :)Jul 20 00:07
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notzedsebsebseb: they probably got sick of cloning windows and it shows how hard it is to do it from scratchJul 20 00:07
oiaohmWindows CE will still work on them ThistleWeb.Jul 20 00:07
ThistleWebkJul 20 00:07
notzedoiaohm: like activex?  wtf would they do that?Jul 20 00:08
sebsebsebAondo: I wasn't a teenager  that long agoJul 20 00:08
oiaohmnotzed: like activex but truly secure notzedJul 20 00:08
sebsebsebAondo: or I should say,  I was a teenager not that long agoJul 20 00:08
Aondosebsebseb, i'm just saying that to point out that kde4 is new and needs to experience life, much like a teenager :PJul 20 00:08
sebsebsebAondo: yeah even early 20's still a lot ot experience and such yetJul 20 00:09
oiaohmThe tech google is developing in chrome OS also under mines lot of the .net claim of extra secuirty over native code.Jul 20 00:09
sebsebsebso  this channel is mainly a load of geeks,  who  read sites such as slashdot?   and  I assume for many here boycottnovell as wellJul 20 00:09
Aondoi guess we will see even more contributions to the linux kernel from googles side, with chrome os.Jul 20 00:10
sebsebsebcomputing would be so much better, if   most computer users weren't so ignorantJul 20 00:11
ThistleWebit's gonna be interesting to see MS complain about Google's "monopoly" on netbooks because they can tie in all their apps, and be one of several netbook options on sale.......and see it fired right back with MS's desktop / laptop monopolies where that's ALL the customer can choose fromJul 20 00:11
oiaohmGoogle does want a workable userspace plugin jail.Jul 20 00:11
oiaohmNot really sebsebsebJul 20 00:11
notzeddo you have any references for this?  this is completely not what i was expecting from chromeos, considering the 'big deal' in chrome is the javascriptJul 20 00:11
sebsebseboiaohm: sure it would be, at the moment  Microsoft for example,   but it's not just them,  games companies for example not making for Linux,   right well with Microsoft  they get away with a lot really, because most computer users don't know better.   oh and going back to the games companies   their excuse is Linux does not have enough market share yetJul 20 00:13
sebsebseboiaohm: I guess my message didn't quite make sense, nevermindJul 20 00:13
ThistleWebthe problem with "market share" is it's often done by counting brick and mortar salesJul 20 00:13
ThistleWebnot onlineJul 20 00:13
schestowitzSee the comments in: http://industry.bnet.com/technology/10002660/the-battle-of-microsoft-mirrors-the-french-revolution/Jul 20 00:14
ThistleWeband anything that's not a sale is not countedJul 20 00:14
sebsebsebshould everyone use  Linux that uses a computer on the desktop? of course not,   but if we had like 20%  market share,   a lot of companies will take us seriosulyJul 20 00:14
ThistleWebnot to mention the integrity of the peeps commissioning and preparing reports, they do it as an investment to show what they want to showJul 20 00:15
twitterGoogle is wonderful http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEeePC/HowTo/InstallJul 20 00:15
ThistleWebI'd reckon we're around the same as Apple at maybe 8 or 9%Jul 20 00:15
ThistleWeband slowly rising with every MS disasterJul 20 00:16
notzedlow-end games are all flash now anyway, the client os is mostly irrelevant.Jul 20 00:16
sebsebsebcomputers is one of those things,  where  people don't really get choice, unless they know about them.   you  could go into a  food shop,  and  not really have a clue about  where  the products come from,  and how they were made,   but you will find that  you still have choice,   of   differnet  chocolates  bars  or  whatever  your buyingJul 20 00:16
oiaohmhttp://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/  <<  This fragment is the big change chrome os is bring.Jul 20 00:16
ThistleWeba lot of peeps will suffer MS specific things over and over, but at some point another infection will be the final straw and they will abandon WindowsJul 20 00:16
sebsebsebThistleWeb: dependsJul 20 00:17
oiaohmGoogle is going to bring SUN idea of web based OS to life.Jul 20 00:17
ThistleWebthey may go Mac, they may go LinuxJul 20 00:17
ThistleWebbut they won't go new-WindowsJul 20 00:17
oiaohmPure nightmare for MS really.Jul 20 00:17
schestowitzhttp://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/14/how-we-know-chrome-os-will-be-a-hit-steve-ballmer-doesnt-think-so/Jul 20 00:17
notzedoh ffs, jfc, they could've at least chosen a decent friggan processorJul 20 00:17
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oiaohmnotzed nativeclient will get ported to other processes.Jul 20 00:18
sebsebsebschestowitz: I am likeing this channel :)   the  person I found out about it from,  thought it would be a load of trolls or somethingJul 20 00:18
schestowitzThere are trolls hereJul 20 00:19
schestowitzNot the regularsJul 20 00:19
schestowitzInvaders who try to ruin itJul 20 00:19
*notzed just shakes his headJul 20 00:19
oiaohmChrome and chrome OS is going to hit as a combination.Jul 20 00:19
schestowitzComments in BN blog likewiseJul 20 00:19
oiaohmBecoming a OS netural platform.Jul 20 00:19
oiaohmThat is good for google.  Bad for MS.Jul 20 00:20
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sebsebsebI was annoyed with this weeks BBC Click,  just like the week before,  they mention nothing about how Google Chrome runs Linux, when they are mentioning itJul 20 00:20
sebsebseband in this weeks  episode a  netbooks, one, they kept on showing them running Windows :(Jul 20 00:21
sebsebsebuh above that was Chrome OSJul 20 00:21
oiaohmLinux most likely will not be the brand sold to public.Jul 20 00:21
ThistleWebdepends on your timing sebsebseb there are troll infestations hereJul 20 00:21
oiaohmChrome OS and Ubuntu and others most likely get sold to public.Jul 20 00:22
sebsebseboiaohm: that was talked about,  how    they  started with Linux, but then people wanted them with Windows on since that's what is familur to themJul 20 00:22
oiaohmThey got it wrong as normal.Jul 20 00:22
sebsebseband something about how  the same thing might happen with the Chrome OS computersJul 20 00:22
notzeddid they?  or was the choice taken away from them?Jul 20 00:23
oiaohmThe issue is applications sebsebsebJul 20 00:23
sebsebseboiaohm: yeah I knowJul 20 00:23
oiaohmDoes not matter.Jul 20 00:23
sebsebsebWine and Windows virtual machines can be pretty good, but for some stuff, they just won't cut it yetJul 20 00:23
oiaohmArm processes will offer like 8 hours+ of runtime.Jul 20 00:23
oiaohmSo people will choose between runtime and windows.Jul 20 00:24
notzedhow many housewives and kids use stuff that isn't in a browser though, `it's the applications' is another furphyJul 20 00:24
oiaohmx86 was just the first attack.Jul 20 00:24
oiaohmnotzed: kids school.Jul 20 00:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google's idea of open source is that it's always in charge. http://ping.fm/RgZVTJul 20 00:24
notzedand they could use just about any wordprocessor without noticingJul 20 00:24
sebsebsebnotzed: indeed  really with a little help,   most computer users could get on with Ubuntu rather fine,  just most of them don't know itJul 20 00:24
oiaohmMS lock in with schools cause problems.Jul 20 00:24
sebsebseboiaohm: indeedJul 20 00:24
sebsebsebreally schools should  have Windows and Linux,  teach both,  and if they have enough money,  may as well get some Macs toJul 20 00:25
oiaohmSchools point to businesses due to the software they use.Jul 20 00:25
oiaohmAnd business point to schools because that is the kind of staff they get.Jul 20 00:25
notzedi like the way google make an explicit effort to confuse the 'free' and 'open source' termsJul 20 00:25
sebsebseboiaohm: yep  that's the excuses of educational establiments a bit higher than schools and such,   they will  use what business runsJul 20 00:26
oiaohmMS has momemtion.Jul 20 00:27
oiaohmBreaking it will be hard.Jul 20 00:27
oiaohmLinux has done MS major harm with the netbooks.Jul 20 00:27
oiaohmMS though cut price crush Linux it would disappear.Jul 20 00:27
notzedjesus, we used commodore 64's and apple ii's at schools hwne i was a kid.  school is to each you how to use computers, not train you for a specific productJul 20 00:27
sebsebsebnotzed: that was the origianl idea sureJul 20 00:28
oiaohmSchools don't teach word processing any more.Jul 20 00:28
sebsebsebwhen   I was at school they were on the verge of  getting rid of the old Achorns  and BBC's and going Windows only hmmJul 20 00:28
oiaohmThey teach how to use MS Word.Jul 20 00:28
sebsebseboiaohm: indeed and  that's a bad thingJul 20 00:28
oiaohmSo students cannot explain what they are doing.Jul 20 00:28
schestowitzgnJul 20 00:28
sebsebsebschestowitz: good nightJul 20 00:28
oiaohmWhat makes support a nightmare.Jul 20 00:29
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schestowitzHeyJul 20 00:29
schestowitz:-)Jul 20 00:29
sebsebseboiaohm: you do  support?  for schools?  Microsoft?Jul 20 00:29
schestowitztessier: downtimeJul 20 00:29
notzedmake happy little consumers of us all.  well i guess the west's time at the top's days are numbered anywayJul 20 00:29
oiaohmI do support for companies sebsebsebJul 20 00:29
tessierBack upJul 20 00:29
schestowitz:-)Jul 20 00:29
schestowitzAny reason known?Jul 20 00:30
tessierIt crashed two days in a row at exactly 4pm local which is midnight GMT. HmmmJul 20 00:30
sebsebsebnotzed: yep  Linux is starting to get quite popular in places such as Asia and South AmericaJul 20 00:30
oiaohmThe older proper trained staff in word processing with a problem I enjoy.Jul 20 00:30
tessierI'm looking into it.Jul 20 00:30
oiaohmOver the phone they can describe there problem.Jul 20 00:30
oiaohmAnd I can normally just answer them.Jul 20 00:30
schestowitzThanks. I'm exhausted having woken up early, so I'll catch you in the morning and thanks a bundle!Jul 20 00:30
oiaohmThese new MS word trained only I normally have to vnc into there comptuer to see what they are doing.Jul 20 00:30
oiaohmWhat really screws up support time.Jul 20 00:31
oiaohmThey don't even know basic words just justifyJul 20 00:31
sebsebseboiaohm: indeed  the younger generation are at a right disadvantage  when it comes to  computing,  and the goverments are to ignorant  or locked into Microsoft to reolizeJul 20 00:31
tessierschestowitz: Goodnight! I'll work on stabilizing whatever this issue is.Jul 20 00:32
oiaohmThe schools are not producing what business needs.Jul 20 00:32
oiaohmWhat businesses need are students that can describe there problems clearly.Jul 20 00:32
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notzedsebsebseb: really?  there's more opportunity and info than ever before.  a self-motivated individual wouldd be at a huge advantage.  it's just now everyone has to deal with computers not just the geeks who want toJul 20 00:32
oiaohmUsing correct terms.Jul 20 00:33
sebsebseboiaohm: in fact I even read something on BBC before about some  computers that belonged to the US and  UK  goverment,   being part of botnets,  so  what does that tell us?  (rethorical question, but you can answer if you want)Jul 20 00:33
oiaohmThat saves a lot of costs.Jul 20 00:33
sebsebsebnotzed: Educational Establishments tend to only or mainly teach propritary commercial software,  Microsoft,  Adobe, etc,  that's the problemJul 20 00:33
oiaohmThe answer to the botnet question is worse than many people dream.Jul 20 00:33
notzedthe products you learn in school are irrelevant though.  by the time you've got a mortgage they p[robablywont even exist anymroeJul 20 00:34
oiaohmRun as a guest user on Vista that is not network connected and you can change the admin users password or create an admin user.Jul 20 00:34
sebsebsebnotzed: nonsense  Microsoft is here to stay for  another 10 years or more yet, I expectJul 20 00:34
oiaohmIe when connected to a windows network a good system admin can correct windows secuirty so that does not happen.Jul 20 00:35
oiaohmWindows secuirty defaults are setup by a idiot.Jul 20 00:35
notzedthat would be the first time in history that happened ...Jul 20 00:35
oiaohmThat should have been replaced.Jul 20 00:35
oiaohmBot nets in the numbers they are.  Purely MS fault.Jul 20 00:35
oiaohmMS has been very good at redirecting hate to the creators of bot netsJul 20 00:36
sebsebseboiaohm: well  not all companies etc have good Windows  admins,   I remember   one year at an educational establiment  the viruses deleting work from the network,  ok so they have a backup on the server, but anyway,   and then  the next year or whatever,    how I went to them and tipped them off,   about   how  could log into any account by just knowing the  user number  and no password,   well  I assume anyJul 20 00:36
sebsebsebaccount including staff.   a  friend of mine told me about it, and I thought this is rather bad for securityJul 20 00:36
sebsebseboiaohm: then they are like we will tell our network guy, and he will sort it outJul 20 00:36
oiaohmI am the auditor for many networks.Jul 20 00:37
oiaohmWorse so far was a 10 000 page report on secuirty flaws all windows releated.Jul 20 00:37
oiaohmYes that is how many pages you can start off with just install windows by default and network it.Jul 20 00:38
oiaohmPoorly setup Mac network is only 4 pages.Jul 20 00:38
sebsebsebyep botnets are MS's fault, altough once someone  installed a malicious program on a  Mac and it became part of a botnet,  or  whatever BBC Click said,   and then they showed some  rubbish or whatever when it came to Linux and botnets.   this was a few months ago  now.   after   they   did the botnet experiment  to   give people an ideaJul 20 00:39
sebsebseboiaohm: what are pages?  I don't know that much about networkingJul 20 00:40
oiaohmAny OS can join a bot net.Jul 20 00:40
oiaohmI create reports on secuirty problems sebsebsebJul 20 00:40
oiaohmThat is the size document in A4 font 10 with 1 cm margins I end up handing over.Jul 20 00:40
sebsebseboiaohm: normally botnets will run Windows though,  and you said it's purely Microsoft's fault?   why?  ,because of there rubbish default security in the non server versions?Jul 20 00:41
oiaohmEven there server versions have poor secuirty defaults.Jul 20 00:41
Diablo-D3oiaohm: btw, macs are probably even less than 4 pagesJul 20 00:41
Diablo-D3there really isnt that much that can be fucked up in a macJul 20 00:41
oiaohmIntroduction and references Diablo-D3Jul 20 00:42
Diablo-D3ahhJul 20 00:42
Diablo-D3so like, half a page of real shitJul 20 00:42
oiaohmTake up about a page eachJul 20 00:42
Diablo-D3?Jul 20 00:42
oiaohm2 pages of things mostly linked to Apple networking.Jul 20 00:42
oiaohmMinor altertations to make it truly secure.Jul 20 00:43
oiaohmLike enabling arp controls so arp tables cannot be messed with to miss direct traffic.Jul 20 00:43
oiaohmHigh level crap most people don't worry about Diablo-D3Jul 20 00:44
Diablo-D3still, osx should be 100% secure by default ;)Jul 20 00:44
sebsebsebDiablo-D3: I think  you  meant as a kind of joke, but no OS is 100% secure by default,  however apparantly OpenBSD is the most secure OSJul 20 00:44
oiaohm10 percent secure OS is a OS that does not run.Jul 20 00:45
oiaohmOpps 100 percent secure OSJul 20 00:45
sebsebsebwell in that caseJul 20 00:45
sebsebsebWindows should be 100% secure by defaultJul 20 00:45
sebsebsebbye bye Windows :)Jul 20 00:45
oiaohmIt runs.Jul 20 00:45
oiaohmBadlyJul 20 00:46
Diablo-D3sebsebseb: I didnt mean it as a jokeJul 20 00:46
Diablo-D3its just that if theres anything left to be done to make osx secure, it should be done out of the boxJul 20 00:46
oiaohmDo you know what arp is controling Diablo-D3Jul 20 00:46
Diablo-D3oiaohm: I know what ARP isJul 20 00:46
sebsebsebyeah  people have said stuff like,   Windows was never designed to be secure,  security was  a bolt onJul 20 00:46
sebsebsebI don't know what ARP isJul 20 00:47
oiaohmWhy would not you what that total secured out box.Jul 20 00:47
Diablo-D3oiaohm: what?Jul 20 00:47
oiaohmArpJul 20 00:47
Diablo-D3no, what you said isnt englishJul 20 00:47
sebsebseboiaohm: which OS's do you run at home and why?Jul 20 00:48
oiaohmWhy would you not want arp totally secured out box Diablo-D3?Jul 20 00:48
Diablo-D3oiaohm: this is what Im saying, why doesnt osx do it by defaultJul 20 00:48
Diablo-D3oiaohm: its hard to pitch osx as a secure alternative to windows to dumbass uses if its technically notJul 20 00:49
oiaohmIf you total secuiry arp client will not allow any unknown computers to interface with it.Jul 20 00:49
oiaohmSo cannot find if any other computer is on network.Jul 20 00:49
sebsebsebDiablo-D3: Apple have even suggested that people have a few virus scanners for OS X just in case,   since they don't all pick up on the same stuffJul 20 00:49
oiaohmWill not even talk to adsl modems connected by networkJul 20 00:50
oiaohmIts a high level secuirty thing truly painful if you don't need it.Jul 20 00:50
oiaohmARP is layer 2 in the network protocals  sebsebseb.  The one just above hardware.Jul 20 00:51
oiaohmControl it control how traffic moves threw network.Jul 20 00:51
Diablo-D3oiaohm: er, ohJul 20 00:51
sebsebseboiaohm: I know what a protocall is, but   the other stuff I don't really know aboutJul 20 00:51
Diablo-D3oiaohm: *ahem* leaving it by default is fine >_>Jul 20 00:52
oiaohmWithout arp you would have to use device mac address to talk to things.Jul 20 00:54
oiaohmIn a normal switched networkJul 20 00:55
oiaohmThe secuirty downside of arp is that it can be spoofed so redirecting traffic to the wrong machine.Jul 20 00:55
oiaohmBasically I have to put something on the report Diablo-D3.  So about half a page of normal problems.   And about 1 1/5 pages of advance filler.Jul 20 00:57
Diablo-D3oiaohm: I'm happy with half a pageJul 20 00:59
Diablo-D3half a page is wonderful if the windows report is ten thousand pagesJul 20 00:59
Diablo-D3half a page of fixes could be automated with a perl script.Jul 20 00:59
oiaohmWindows document is that long I don't include any of the advanced stuff.Jul 20 01:00
oiaohmPeople like me windows virus problem makes perfect sence.Jul 20 01:01
oiaohmIf something is that defective it just has to get viruses.Jul 20 01:01
oiaohmhttp://arpon.sourceforge.net/ is a nice handy item that lot of users don't install.Jul 20 01:03
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bruce89byeJul 20 01:12
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sebsebsebboycott means likeJul 20 01:18
sebsebsebdestroy?Jul 20 01:18
sebsebsebget rid of?Jul 20 01:18
sebsebsebuh wrong channelJul 20 01:18
sebsebseb,but could  ask this hereJul 20 01:18
ThistleWebboycott is punishing a company by not doing business with them, trying to get them to change their policies if it affects their image and profits enoughJul 20 01:20
sebsebsebboycottmicrosoft :)Jul 20 01:21
sebsebsebThistleWeb: yeah don't use don't buy fromJul 20 01:22
sebsebsebthe meaningJul 20 01:24
_Hicham_yes, exactlyJul 20 01:26
_Hicham_buy not buying from them, we can put pressure on themJul 20 01:26
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I thought this channel was pretty much dead for the night, maybe not thenJul 20 01:26
_Hicham_depends where u liveJul 20 01:27
sebsebsebtrueJul 20 01:27
notzedmid-morning hereJul 20 01:33
_Hicham_notzed : where do u live ?Jul 20 01:36
notzedaustraliaJul 20 01:38
_Hicham_like oiaohm and EruaranJul 20 01:39
Diablo-D3so, you know what we should all do?Jul 20 01:39
Diablo-D3learn java and spend all our free time coding in itJul 20 01:39
_Hicham_why Java ?Jul 20 01:39
Diablo-D3because microsoft hates the shit out of itJul 20 01:40
Diablo-D3and anything microsoft hates is totally awesome in my bookJul 20 01:40
_Hicham_Java is already popular than .NETJul 20 01:40
notzedjava is quite niceJul 20 01:40
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: that isnt itJul 20 01:43
_Hicham_Java is better than .NETJul 20 01:43
Diablo-D3do you know why c# and .net exist?Jul 20 01:43
Diablo-D3because microsoft hates javaJul 20 01:43
_Hicham_to counter JavaJul 20 01:43
Diablo-D3c#/.net is trying to secure the one market java hasnt saturated: the desktopJul 20 01:44
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_Hicham_they created Java right after Sun pulled off their license to use Java src from MSJul 20 01:44
_Hicham_remember MS used to ship a Java JVM in Windows98Jul 20 01:44
Diablo-D3yes, I know thisJul 20 01:45
Diablo-D3everyone does, its a popular story =PJul 20 01:45
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Diablo-D3what Im saying though, is the BN community should become very java orientedJul 20 01:45
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_Hicham_the BN community is very variedJul 20 01:46
_Hicham_we have a lot of profiles in hereJul 20 01:46
_Hicham_not only programmersJul 20 01:46
_Hicham_plus, the future of Java is uncertainJul 20 01:46
Diablo-D3the future of java is very certainJul 20 01:47
_Hicham_Java is not yet 100% GPLJul 20 01:47
Diablo-D3java actually is 100% gplJul 20 01:47
_Hicham_no, it is notJul 20 01:47
Diablo-D3theres nothing actually missingJul 20 01:47
_Hicham_there isJul 20 01:47
Diablo-D3no one used the stuff they removed, so no, not reallyJul 20 01:47
_Hicham_it is 99% GPLJul 20 01:47
_Hicham_there is quite some bitsJul 20 01:47
Diablo-D3like what?Jul 20 01:48
_Hicham_sthg related to fonts and other stuffJul 20 01:48
_Hicham_that is why RedHat started IcedTea projectJul 20 01:48
Diablo-D3icedtea is now openjdkJul 20 01:48
_Hicham_after the mergeJul 20 01:48
_Hicham_yesJul 20 01:48
Diablo-D3which I currently use instead of sun'sJul 20 01:48
Diablo-D3and the font stuff isnt directly related to anythingJul 20 01:48
_Hicham_nobody uses sun's jvmJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_on linuxJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_openjdk is the standardJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_butJul 20 01:49
Diablo-D3I _can_ use sun's jvmJul 20 01:49
Diablo-D3I just have to apt-get itJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_it is not thatJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_I am not talking about apt-gettingJul 20 01:49
_Hicham_it is about ethicsJul 20 01:49
Diablo-D3in what way?Jul 20 01:50
_Hicham_because linux users respect ethicsJul 20 01:50
Diablo-D3they ship openjdk by default because its easier to maintain, its a higher quality product, and its fasterJul 20 01:50
_Hicham_trueJul 20 01:50
_Hicham_except that some sites won't work with itJul 20 01:50
notzedhmm, i'm not sure they all respect ethics that muchJul 20 01:50
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: "no"Jul 20 01:51
Diablo-D3openjdk6 has a fucked up JWS re: certsJul 20 01:51
Diablo-D3it was accidently broken and no one noticedJul 20 01:51
Diablo-D3they've fixed it, but obviously some installations have to be upgradedJul 20 01:52
Diablo-D3it doesnt effect openjdk7Jul 20 01:52
Diablo-D3openjdk6 does, hoever, include everything that people still useJul 20 01:52
Diablo-D3they even have the audio code in itJul 20 01:53
Diablo-D3I _think_ the midi stuff is missing, but no one seriously used itJul 20 01:53
Diablo-D3so thats not really a lossJul 20 01:54
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tessierIf Java were 100% GPL I would be able to yum install it. But I can't.Jul 20 01:57
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Diablo-D3tessier: openjdk6Jul 20 01:59
Diablo-D3tessier: redhat is one of the major driving forces behind it, so yes, you can yum install itJul 20 01:59
Balrog_it's only a little compression code that wasn't gplJul 20 01:59
Diablo-D3Balrog_: pack200? I think that codes gplJul 20 02:00
notzedi think i'm going to do some stuff in java, not sure what yet (beyond a simple game with a friend), but something'll turn upJul 20 02:01
notzed3.5 years of .net need purging somehowJul 20 02:02
_Hicham_who is using Fedora in here ?Jul 20 02:03
notzedmy laptops use itJul 20 02:05
_Hicham_notzed : are u a .NET developer?Jul 20 02:05
notzedex .net as of 1 week agoJul 20 02:07
notzedproject finished, so i'm planning a good bit of time off for nowJul 20 02:08
Diablo-D3notzed: you'll love javaJul 20 02:10
Diablo-D3you can even keep thinking in c#Jul 20 02:10
Diablo-D3c# is like 99% syntax compatible with java6Jul 20 02:10
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notzedi've done java before (paid to do it), but that was 10 years agoJul 20 02:17
notzedi've had a good look in the last 6 months tooJul 20 02:17
oiaohmnotzed: Java .Net Python really will not matter they are all appearing to start to share the same backend llvm.Jul 20 02:26
oiaohmSo performance difference between them will become nothing.Jul 20 02:26
notzedwho cares anyway, computers are so fast.  i really disliked the .net language and runtime.  incomplete/unfinished, shit doco, not even any sourceJul 20 02:28
sebsebsebnotzed: Mono :dJul 20 02:28
oiaohmPower usage is a factor notzedJul 20 02:31
oiaohmThe idea that a program can just use more and more cpu time has to end.Jul 20 02:31
notzedmono didn't support the api's we were usingJul 20 02:34
notzedvisual studio is a joke too, while i'm at itJul 20 02:34
Diablo-D3wellJul 20 02:34
Diablo-D3the problem here is thoughJul 20 02:34
Diablo-D3people think java automatically means slower than shitJul 20 02:34
Diablo-D3java is around 25-50% slower than C depending on the taskJul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3and its not even "slower"Jul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3if you implemented the same thing java does in C, it'd be just as fastJul 20 02:35
notzedyeah it's plenty fast.  a bit memory heavy thoughJul 20 02:35
oiaohmhttp://morepypy.blogspot.com/   << Same with python.Jul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3Java has basically zero wasted cycles anymoreJul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3notzed: not evenJul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3java maintains a memory poolJul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3this pool _can_ be tweakedJul 20 02:35
Diablo-D3most of the pool in, say, a hello world example is emptyJul 20 02:36
Diablo-D3the new G1 GC improves a lot of that behavior anyhowJul 20 02:36
Diablo-D3the GC is now parallelized and can free unused sections of the poolJul 20 02:36
notzedhaving a single vm for each application is still heavyJul 20 02:36
oiaohmDoes not cost that much on Linux notzedJul 20 02:37
Diablo-D3java's default pool size is based on how much memory you have and years of researchJul 20 02:37
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Diablo-D3and like I said, you can tweak thisJul 20 02:37
oiaohmThe slight differences in memory management make a big difference.Jul 20 02:37
oiaohmWindows is not really designed to handle multi process applications well.Jul 20 02:38
Diablo-D3the last "flaw" in java is the GC, and the new G1 GC is very very impressiveJul 20 02:38
Diablo-D3the G1 GC is going to be released with java 7 and they're backporting it for future 6 releasesJul 20 02:38
notzedit doesn't matter, having a new vm for every app is crap, doesn't matter what language it is, it's going to be much heavier memory use than a non-vm language (e.g. all libraries have to be re-compiled for every instance)Jul 20 02:39
oiaohmNot true.Jul 20 02:39
Diablo-D3not true at allJul 20 02:39
oiaohmCurrent day java uses a lot of AOT notzedJul 20 02:39
Diablo-D3yeah what oiaohm saidJul 20 02:39
oiaohmSo libs are built once and used many.Jul 20 02:40
oiaohmMono still uses the nasty JIT for libs what is stupid.Jul 20 02:40
Diablo-D3notzed: also, how do you propose security if all apps use the same vm?Jul 20 02:40
Diablo-D3oiaohm: no, mono can aotJul 20 02:40
oiaohmDefault.Jul 20 02:40
Diablo-D3but it produces an entire binary that doesnt require mono to be installedJul 20 02:40
Diablo-D3that solves a different issue than thisJul 20 02:40
notzedisn't that the whole point of an interpreted language?Jul 20 02:40
oiaohmDiablo-D3: by default mono JIT the libs.Jul 20 02:41
Diablo-D3btw, the only thing this causes is the startup costJul 20 02:41
oiaohmYou have to aot the libs you self so it aots them.Jul 20 02:41
Diablo-D3java has a very low startup costJul 20 02:41
Diablo-D3its obviously longer than, say, languages that dont have one (C, etc)Jul 20 02:41
notzeda lot longer, so therefore it isn't 'very low'.Jul 20 02:41
oiaohmC depending on libs used can be longer than java.Jul 20 02:42
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the libs arguably are coded wrongJul 20 02:42
oiaohmJava can built to pure native binaries.Jul 20 02:42
notzedyeah yeah and you can write a bubble sort in assembly, that doesn't mean assembly is slowJul 20 02:42
Diablo-D3but yeah, the whole "java is slow" shit is based on what java did 10 years agoJul 20 02:42
oiaohmThe difference is really minor.Jul 20 02:42
Diablo-D3java today is very very very fastJul 20 02:42
Diablo-D3its arguably faster than what I could code in CJul 20 02:43
oiaohmC speed issues are complier.Jul 20 02:43
oiaohmGcc sux's.Jul 20 02:43
Diablo-D3gcc is actually better than it used to beJul 20 02:43
oiaohmGcc still does not optimise the program as a whole.Jul 20 02:43
Diablo-D3though I'm very interested in apple's new compiler that uses llvmJul 20 02:43
oiaohmThat java and .net get to.Jul 20 02:43
Diablo-D3oiaohm: noJul 20 02:43
Diablo-D3.net does not hotspot optimizeJul 20 02:44
Diablo-D3neither does monoJul 20 02:44
Diablo-D3they _could_, but they dontJul 20 02:44
Diablo-D3and its retardedJul 20 02:44
oiaohmAOT mono is whole program.Jul 20 02:44
Diablo-D3AOT mono doesnt let you runtime hotspot optimize thoughJul 20 02:44
oiaohmJIT mono sucks balls.Jul 20 02:44
Diablo-D3one of modern java's current strengths is the hotspot optimization methodJul 20 02:45
oiaohmRuntime hotspot optimise has its downsides.Jul 20 02:45
notzedeverything in life is a trade-offJul 20 02:45
oiaohmllvm can do whole program optimisation.Jul 20 02:45
Diablo-D3the strengths outweigh the weaknessesJul 20 02:45
Diablo-D3oiaohm: hehJul 20 02:45
oiaohmNot allways.Jul 20 02:45
Diablo-D3did you know sun has a jvm that uses llvm?Jul 20 02:45
Diablo-D3they're very much interested in that project tooJul 20 02:45
Diablo-D3everyone isJul 20 02:46
ThistleWeblol schestowitz listen to the latest LAS episode, Chris is going off on BNJul 20 02:46
Diablo-D3apple, intel, amd, a dozen major foss projectsJul 20 02:46
oiaohmMajor problem with hotspot you can end up with optimisation thashing.Jul 20 02:46
Diablo-D3intel is trying to teach llvm techniques that they developed in iccJul 20 02:46
Diablo-D3ThistleWeb: url?Jul 20 02:46
oiaohmWhole program optimisation is do it once but do it well.Jul 20 02:47
ThistleWebjupiterbroadcasting.orgJul 20 02:47
ThistleWebthe current episode of LASJul 20 02:47
Diablo-D3bad urlJul 20 02:47
oiaohmEverything is slowly becoming llvm.Jul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3well, a universal low level optimization system is usefulJul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3less redundant bullshitJul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3especially since the problem is not writing the code, but finding people to write itJul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3there simply isnt that many people in the world that really get this shitJul 20 02:48
ThistleWebhttp://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/Jul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3sun was blessed by having several of those people over the yerJul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3*yearsJul 20 02:48
notzedbut .net/python/java is so easy to write!  anyone can do it!Jul 20 02:48
Diablo-D3ThistleWeb: that worksJul 20 02:49
oiaohmpython has an advantage over .net and javaJul 20 02:49
ThistleWebthey're big fans of mono / banshee / f-spot etcJul 20 02:49
Diablo-D3python may someday have an advantageJul 20 02:49
oiaohmIt will be used heavly in blender 2.50Jul 20 02:49
Diablo-D3they want to use llvmJul 20 02:49
ThistleWebBN gets a special mention about 45mins inJul 20 02:49
Diablo-D3but python speed is totally fuckedJul 20 02:49
oiaohmEdit source have alteration achive straight way.Jul 20 02:49
ThistleWebbut there's plenty on mono etcJul 20 02:50
oiaohmDepends on what python engine you are using David_LeeJul 20 02:50
oiaohmOppsJul 20 02:50
oiaohmDiablo-D3:Jul 20 02:50
Diablo-D3if you're not using pyrex/cython, you're looking at 60x slower than CJul 20 02:50
oiaohmpypy is faster than mono.Jul 20 02:50
Diablo-D3vs .5x slowerJul 20 02:50
oiaohmIts only minorally slower than C.Jul 20 02:50
notzedthe problem with stuff being too easy to use is that the people using it don't know what they're doing and you end up with rubbish anywayJul 20 02:51
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the default python3 engine is slowJul 20 02:51
Diablo-D3and I just really dont like pythonJul 20 02:51
oiaohmJust like java byte code interp is slow.Jul 20 02:51
Diablo-D3ThistleWeb: wtf is with these guys and backgroundsJul 20 02:51
oiaohmGoogle is working on merging the speed tech back into main line.Jul 20 02:51
Diablo-D3ThistleWeb: the atlantis stargate, and then the previous ep the TOS enterprise bridgeJul 20 02:52
oiaohmOf python.Jul 20 02:52
Diablo-D3ThistleWeb: its almost like these guys are posersJul 20 02:52
oiaohmOne of the good things about python is python does not have a define bytecode.Jul 20 02:53
ThistleWebyeah they do like the "presenter style"Jul 20 02:53
oiaohmSo the bytecode build files could in time be just replaced with native code modules.Jul 20 02:53
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Diablo-D3oiaohm: still, its no javaJul 20 02:57
*Diablo-D3 will brbJul 20 02:59
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tessierpython not being multithreaded (GIL) is bound to cause it problems soonJul 20 03:04
notzedthat put me off it almost as much as the syntax didJul 20 03:05
tessierI like the syntax. I don't care for the GILJul 20 03:05
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twitterugh, infuriating.  Wong manages to post comments, but I can't.Jul 20 05:31
twitter July 19th, 2009 at 9:44 am,  I suppose something may have changed since then.Jul 20 05:31
Diablo-D3okay soJul 20 05:36
Diablo-D3Im going to watch this linux action show shitJul 20 05:36
Diablo-D3the guys sound like shitJul 20 05:36
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Diablo-D3MY BRAIN, ITS MELTINGJul 20 05:52
Diablo-D3these guys suckJul 20 05:52
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Diablo-D3these guys are mildly funnyJul 20 06:13
Diablo-D3"<mark shuttleworth> lets make it like a mac!"Jul 20 06:13
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Omar87Diablo-D3: Then put it in the fridge immediately!Jul 20 06:27
Omar87:)Jul 20 06:27
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thenixedreportHow you holding up Roy?Jul 20 06:35
Diablo-D3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN75im_us4kJul 20 06:36
thenixedreport@Diablo-D3: Wow.Jul 20 06:38
thenixedreportThat's hilarious.Jul 20 06:38
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schestowitzMorning...Jul 20 06:54
EdgarhmmJul 20 06:56
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schestowitzMy hosting has just had an error. It might bounce mail (gasp)!Jul 20 06:59
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schestowitzA lot of people out there don't seem to know about Symbian and patents, DRM, etc. They give it publicity... http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/symbian-foundation-aims-to-improve-app-development.arsJul 20 07:32
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schestowitzWow. Only two headline about "Vista" in 2 weeks.Jul 20 07:34
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schestowitz70 matches for "Dows 7"Jul 20 07:36
schestowitzI reckon coverage gets policed by those undercover TEs who harass anyone that says something negative about key productsJul 20 07:38
schestowitzProxy fighter Icahn is coming to Microsoft's rescue..?  http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/07/yahoo-board-member-icahn-wants-microsoft-deal-reuters/Jul 20 07:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Amusing bug comment of the day:- http://bit.ly/6Ok84Jul 20 07:45
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] AFAIK, Microsoft Office online is an old product... why is a reannouncement getting so much press?Jul 20 07:56
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thenixedreport1Anyone try out Chromium yet?Jul 20 07:57
schestowitzhttp://www.forbes.com/2009/07/11/microsoft-cloud-computing-intelligent-technology-microsoft.html?partner=yahootixJul 20 07:57
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thenixedreport1I wish Pidgin was a bit more elegant at handling IRC.Jul 20 07:59
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schestowitzhttp://www.crn.com/software/218101922;jsessionid=QL3CSLBR0HCCOQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JVN?cid=ChannelWebBreakingNewsJul 20 07:59
schestowitzthenixedreport: why not xchat?Jul 20 07:59
schestowitzTBH, I only ever used mirc (13 years ago) and xchat, except for Web GUIsJul 20 08:00
thenixedreportMainly because I'm on Yahoo and other IM services.Jul 20 08:00
thenixedreportWhy have multiple applications running at once?Jul 20 08:00
schestowitzMeet Google's Lobbyist—Again < http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS216107083220090629 >Jul 20 08:00
schestowitzthenixedreport: trueJul 20 08:01
schestowitzthenixedreport: just have emacs !! :-)Jul 20 08:01
thenixedreportlolJul 20 08:02
thenixedreportWait, emacs has a plugin for IRC?Jul 20 08:02
thenixedreportOh wow.Jul 20 08:03
thenixedreportYes it does.Jul 20 08:03
thenixedreportSo why isn't Emacs an operating system in and of itself by now?Jul 20 08:03
schestowitzNetbook OS startup caught between Microsoft, Google < http://www.examiner.com/x-8162-SF-Gadgets-Examiner~y2009m7d9-Netbook-OS-startup-caught-between-Microsoft-Google > Quite true, that. Large companies are very scary to small ones that just want to be scooped up and can't market themselvesJul 20 08:05
schestowitzthenixedreport: I bet it doesJul 20 08:05
schestowitzemacs can do newsgroups tooJul 20 08:05
schestowitzthenixedreport: it's an editor, a Church, but not yet an OSJul 20 08:05
thenixedreportA Church, eh?  :)Jul 20 08:06
thenixedreportlolJul 20 08:07
thenixedreport:DJul 20 08:08
trmancognus does newsgroupsJul 20 08:08
schestowitzOh.Jul 20 08:09
schestowitzgnusgroupJul 20 08:09
trmanco:-PJul 20 08:09
schestowitzStallman was very active in USENETJul 20 08:09
trmancoemacs can do a bunch of neat thingsJul 20 08:09
schestowitzSteep learning curveJul 20 08:09
schestowitzI still stuggle with viJul 20 08:10
trmancoyep, but it's worth itJul 20 08:10
schestowitz*ruggle . I forgot shortcutsJul 20 08:10
thenixedreportI heard he doesn't browse the web for personal reasons.Jul 20 08:11
Diablo-D3schestowitz: hehJul 20 08:11
Diablo-D3seriously, people who are afraid of companies are moronsJul 20 08:12
schestowitzhttp://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2009/07/13/daily68.html?ana=yfcpc "Agrawal was previously global head of product marketing at Google Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) and later vice president for products at TellMe Networks Inc., which was acquired by Microsoft Corp. (NASDAQ:MSFT)."Jul 20 08:12
schestowitzDiablo-D3: not trueJul 20 08:12
schestowitzCOmpanies are very formidableJul 20 08:13
schestowitzI know from other people who decided to go against this trend rather than accepting itJul 20 08:13
schestowitzBullying is a standard procedure... trying to scare critics and harass themJul 20 08:13
schestowitzI actually think Novell has been pretty nice compared to say... SCOJul 20 08:13
schestowitzI mean, AFAIK, Novell did not bother me much. They have employees comment in BN, but they don't go over the line.Jul 20 08:14
schestowitzthenixedreport: he pulls pages, yesJul 20 08:14
schestowitzSome call him a Luddite for itJul 20 08:14
schestowitzBut it's a statement to his followersJul 20 08:15
thenixedreportIs it that he's concerned with security implications or does the web really not interest him that much?Jul 20 08:15
schestowitzJust as he doesn't use blobs because if /HE/ does, what sort of example will he be? He also doesn't use a cellphone, which is reasonable. He flies coach.Jul 20 08:15
schestowitzthenixedreport: he's basically right about the WebJul 20 08:15
thenixedreportUnderstood.Jul 20 08:15
schestowitzToo much surveillance there...  but to avoid browsing is impracticalJul 20 08:16
schestowitzEven E-mails that we send are in plain text and get logged (retained) at the nodes... for who know how many years...Jul 20 08:16
schestowitz*knowsJul 20 08:16
schestowitzRMS should just browser with Tor or soemthing.Jul 20 08:17
schestowitz*browse ; he's wgetting pages from an FSF serverJul 20 08:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Has just updated his Twitter status from the terminal. :)Jul 20 08:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Watch how Microsoft spins Bong. They claim a jump from 0% to 8% because they RENAMED their search engine.... http://bit.ly/3gakNpJul 20 08:24
schestowitzThe Savitz blog (Microsoft booster) spreads Palm/Linux/WebOS FUD: http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/07/01/abc-palm-users-complain-of-hardware-faults/#mod=yahoobarronsJul 20 08:29
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thenixedreportOk.Jul 20 08:37
thenixedreportI caved.Jul 20 08:37
thenixedreportI installed XChat.Jul 20 08:37
thenixedreport:DJul 20 08:37
schestowitzEven some Windows users are on xchatJul 20 08:38
thenixedreportUnfortunately, the Windows port of XChat is trialware.Jul 20 08:38
thenixedreportWhich I don't agree with.Jul 20 08:38
thenixedreportIt's kind of a double standard to make it free for use on Linux and not on Windows.Jul 20 08:38
thenixedreportAnd this is from a person that uses multiple operating systems.Jul 20 08:39
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 08:39
thenixedreportAh well.Jul 20 08:39
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schestowitzGates Foundation invests in sports shops nowJul 20 08:41
schestowitzThis is some very weird type of charityJul 20 08:41
schestowitzpharma investmentsJul 20 08:41
schestowitztobaccoJul 20 08:41
schestowitzalso petrolJul 20 08:41
schestowitzNow sports: http://www.retail-week.com/city/microsoft-tycoon-bill-gates-takes-stake-in-jjb-sports/5004539.articleJul 20 08:41
thenixedreportBtw, I'm getting suspicious of Lefty Schlesinger.Jul 20 08:41
thenixedreportFirst he slams RMS for words that were taken completely out of context.Jul 20 08:42
schestowitzIt's a tax-free investment vehicles, where drugs ("chairity") are used to make returns in the form of pharmaceutical patents Gates invests billions onJul 20 08:42
thenixedreportAnd now he appears to be threateneing a lawsuit.Jul 20 08:42
schestowitzthenixedreport: exactlyJul 20 08:42
schestowitzRMS was DDEFENDING womenJul 20 08:42
schestowitzHe slammed a sexist cultJul 20 08:42
schestowitzBy casting them as a jokeJul 20 08:42
thenixedreportExcept others refuse to see that.Jul 20 08:42
schestowitzOf courseJul 20 08:43
schestowitzBecause it is presented only out of contextJul 20 08:43
schestowitzSo he poisons others vs RMSJul 20 08:43
schestowitzSome of them never got the facts. They just saw bait mailJul 20 08:43
thenixedreportHence this blog post here: http://www.thenixedreport.com/blog/?p=69Jul 20 08:44
schestowitzA lot of people did not understand RMS' joke in the first place becuase they never heard of the Cult of Virgin MaryJul 20 08:44
schestowitzBy the same logic, because RMS joked about "foobarmitzvah" you could say he's anti-SemiteJul 20 08:44
schestowitzBut that too would require spinningJul 20 08:44
schestowitzWhat??Jul 20 08:45
schestowitzMicheal too?Jul 20 08:45
schestowitzLOLJul 20 08:45
schestowitzLXer lynching, as usualJul 20 08:46
schestowitzTHey also used libel against me to justify their prejudicesJul 20 08:46
thenixedreportlolJul 20 08:46
thenixedreportBut be warned man.Jul 20 08:47
schestowitzCarla: "I didn't say that RMS' talk wasn't sexist, I said the blog makes much of little. I have no idea from the blog if RMS said anything sexist. The blog author goes on and on for many words without actually saying anything, like one of those little yapping anklebiter dogs."Jul 20 08:47
schestowitzthenixedreport: in what sense?Jul 20 08:47
thenixedreportPenguin Pete is not your friend.Jul 20 08:47
schestowitzI can't control what people say outside my siteJul 20 08:48
thenixedreportHe is only pretending to stand up for you to drive traffic to his site.Jul 20 08:48
schestowitz"Pete" is one to be taken with cautionJul 20 08:48
thenixedreport(and he took an indirect stab at Ken Starks while doing so)Jul 20 08:48
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 08:48
schestowitzI'm friends with Ken, so I was strognyl against "Pete' after what he did back thenJul 20 08:48
thenixedreport:DJul 20 08:48
schestowitzthenixedreport: Yes, I never forgot the Ken thingJul 20 08:48
schestowitzThat was brutal and uglyJul 20 08:49
schestowitzHahahaha. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzM4MQJul 20 08:49
schestowitzThis is sexist?????????/Jul 20 08:49
schestowitzGive me a break !!Jul 20 08:49
thenixedreportIt initially said "Please the wife..."Jul 20 08:49
schestowitzHe tried to make a folksy jokeJul 20 08:49
schestowitzthenixedreport: nothing sexual about it. Just the myth of men and computersJul 20 08:50
thenixedreportlolJul 20 08:50
schestowitzTactless -- yesJul 20 08:50
schestowitzMisogynist? Hardly.Jul 20 08:50
schestowitzPicky? AbsolutelyJul 20 08:50
thenixedreportEven  when the article points out that those who like to cook period may like the site, people decide to get offended.Jul 20 08:51
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schestowitzI don't agree with what you say on V7Jul 20 08:52
schestowitzVery few people buy computers and people are OK with XP or other platformsJul 20 08:52
schestowitzI saw some demos of V7 (VIsta 7). It's not awful, but it's good enough... so is Linux for most folks.Jul 20 08:53
schestowitzIt's still incompatible with stuff, thus the need for XP virtualisationJul 20 08:53
schestowitzSo one might as well use Linux with VIrtualbox and XP (interim)Jul 20 08:53
thenixedreportTrue, and that's why I pointed out the areas in which 7 falls flat on its face.Jul 20 08:54
thenixedreport1.) The need for 1 GB of RAM.Jul 20 08:54
schestowitzI don't know yet how they'll market V7Jul 20 08:54
schestowitzThey showed nothing very new about itJul 20 08:54
thenixedreport2.) Problems with 64-bit and hardware devicesJul 20 08:54
schestowitzFast boot (compared to XP)? No.Jul 20 08:54
schestowitzWinFS? NoJul 20 08:54
schestowitzNew GUI? Sort of.Jul 20 08:54
thenixedreportInitially, it's more responsive.Jul 20 08:55
schestowitzPerformance (compared to XP): meh.Jul 20 08:55
thenixedreportOver time, it can become a bit sluggish.Jul 20 08:55
schestowitzPeople say, "oh, it's better than VIsta"Jul 20 08:55
thenixedreportActually, it is in a sense.Jul 20 08:55
schestowitzA cabin seems good after 3 years in a cellJul 20 08:55
thenixedreportlolJul 20 08:55
schestowitzNo, seriously.. XP is OLDJul 20 08:55
schestowitzIt's not KDE 2.x anymoreJul 20 08:56
thenixedreportUnderstood.Jul 20 08:56
schestowitzNow we're at KDE 4.3 almostJul 20 08:56
schestowitzSo XP vs Linux is not the same game (used to be KDE 2.x)Jul 20 08:56
thenixedreportTrue.Jul 20 08:56
schestowitzBUT...Jul 20 08:56
schestowitzMargins, margins, margins...Jul 20 08:56
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 08:56
schestowitzPeople are led to believe that all users of WIndows brign much money to MSJul 20 08:56
schestowitzBut the vast of majority of people in most oft he world pay nothingJul 20 08:57
thenixedreportLoss leaders and all that.Jul 20 08:57
schestowitzNot even for Office (esp. in home use)Jul 20 08:57
schestowitzSo the cost of Windows falls to compete with on-par Linux distrosJul 20 08:57
schestowitzLike in netbooksJul 20 08:57
schestowitzANd Microsoft profit will fall sharply in a few daysJul 20 08:57
schestowitzMaybe 30%Jul 20 08:57
thenixedreportWhich is where 7 falls down.Jul 20 08:57
thenixedreportOlder hardware as well.Jul 20 08:57
schestowitzEven if it sells, for how much?Jul 20 08:57
schestowitzOEM V7 can't be expensive... else the OEM stocks more LinuxJul 20 08:58
schestowitzSo maybe $50 apieceJul 20 08:58
schestowitzRevenue floundersJul 20 08:58
schestowitzSo they try to tax Linux nowJul 20 08:58
schestowitzMaking it less attractive based on priceJul 20 08:58
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/14/no-circumstances-lose-against-linux/Jul 20 08:59
fewaschestowitz, XP might be old, but Microsoft hasnt released anything much betterJul 20 09:00
schestowitzExactly.Jul 20 09:01
schestowitzWhen was Mac OS 10.0 released?Jul 20 09:01
schestowitz"Jaguar"?Jul 20 09:01
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fewathats a compelling reason to switch. If you realize that the best product they have is 8 years old, then maybe you are tying your horse to the wrong buggyJul 20 09:02
schestowitzFear of change...Jul 20 09:06
schestowitzBut Linux is gaining on desktops, still.Jul 20 09:06
schestowitzOutside the US especially.Jul 20 09:06
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schestowitzMicrosoft could shed off 2000+ employees shortly http://tinyurl.com/n7y79aJul 20 09:07
popeyschestowitz: page unavailableJul 20 09:07
schestowitzAfter 2 terrible quarters they will also need to implement more reductions. Their margins are messed up by Google and LinuxJul 20 09:08
schestowitzhttp://tinyurl.com/n7y79aJul 20 09:08
schestowitzOr http://www.ft.com/cms/s/76696fc4-6ccc-11de-af56-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F76696fc4-6ccc-11de-af56-00144feabdc0.html%3Freferrer_id%3Dyahoofinance%26ft_ref%3Dyahoo1%26segid%3D03058&ft_ref=yahoo1&segid=03058&referrer_id=yahoofinance&_i_referer=Jul 20 09:08
popey"Dentsu joins Razorfish fray"Jul 20 09:08
popeyis that second link, first tinyurl doesnt workJul 20 09:09
popey"The page you have requested is unfortunately not available.Jul 20 09:09
popey"Jul 20 09:09
schestowitzYeah. Weird... I use a Firefox extension to generate tinylinksJul 20 09:10
schestowitzRazofish is a stunnign storyJul 20 09:10
schestowitzMicrosoft bought them along with a company that uses Linux and FOSSJul 20 09:11
schestowitzThe company's CEO quit some time after Microsoft bought themJul 20 09:11
schestowitzAnd RazorFish deploys Linux/Apache for companies.. under _Microsoft's arm_. It's embarrassing.Jul 20 09:11
thenixedreportSo is commenting disabled at the moment?Jul 20 09:14
thenixedreportI saw the interm policy.Jul 20 09:15
schestowitzNo, people need to register an accountJul 20 09:18
schestowitzWe had hit-n-run trollsJul 20 09:18
schestowitzPeople advised that we should end this because they hijacked the site and ruined it, by intentionJul 20 09:19
schestowitzLessons of other forums is that if there is no control whatsoever, then the expansion leads to trolling and abuse.Jul 20 09:20
schestowitzExamples include the OS/2 forums, Slashdot, even COLA.Jul 20 09:20
thenixedreportOk.Jul 20 09:20
schestowitzWe don't need to harbour people who call other "chimp", intimidate and bullyJul 20 09:21
schestowitzThat would make it gutter and harm the imageJul 20 09:21
schestowitzRemember what the Mono guys did to usJul 20 09:21
schestowitzThey linked to comments that seemed radicalJul 20 09:21
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schestowitzIntel swings to loss on E.U. fine < http://www.marketwatch.com/story/intel-swings-to-loss-due-to-eu-fine-2009714163700?siteid=yhoof >Jul 20 09:25
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schestowitzJune video game sales drop sharply < http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/*http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090716/us_video_game_sales.html?.v=2 > Any company with consoles will suffer, e.g. Sony, MicrosoftJul 20 09:26
schestowitzAnother dying product: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/microsoft-surface-feature.arsJul 20 09:29
schestowitzMicrosoft was going to axe Surface, Gates objectedJul 20 09:29
schestowitz[according to a CNET report from their 'PR puppet' it was Bach who said so]Jul 20 09:30
ThistleWebI noticed a few movies had "surface type" props, without explicitly mentioning it was Surface (either mocked up or real)Jul 20 09:31
schestowitzDoes any ISV develop for Biga$$table at all? If not, then any delay in the axing of this product is just a matter of self-pride and more lossesJul 20 09:31
ThistleWebso even the cool movie factor ain't enough to make Surface a winner lolJul 20 09:31
schestowitzWho can afford it?Jul 20 09:31
schestowitzThey make it in tiny quantitiesJul 20 09:31
ThistleWebthere is thatJul 20 09:32
schestowitz$13k at the cheapestJul 20 09:32
schestowitzAnd when it breaks down, who do you go to?Jul 20 09:32
schestowitzThe local PC shop?Jul 20 09:32
schestowitzIt's non-standard proprietary stuff with no staffJul 20 09:32
ThistleWebthe ttpes of uses I;ve seen it used for in movies is by security peeps, showing pics of plans, suspects, maps etc in briefings for agentsJul 20 09:32
schestowitzSo vanity/showJul 20 09:33
schestowitzBut for use alone people don't need their shhhhhinyJul 20 09:33
ThistleWebI dare say a lot of gadget fans would love one but would have no real use other than showing off, and it's far too expensive for thatJul 20 09:33
schestowitzLike fluorescent lighting underneath one's carJul 20 09:33
ThistleWebI can't imagine it'd be that smooth or reliableJul 20 09:33
schestowitzMicrosoft has only a niche to compete overJul 20 09:33
ThistleWebcoming from MSJul 20 09:34
schestowitzWell, Melinda French would buy oneJul 20 09:34
schestowitzThat's 1Jul 20 09:34
ThistleWebya never saw any crashes in the movies, but then, it's only used for a few mins at a time during the take, which can be re-taken for any reasonJul 20 09:34
schestowitzMaybe they made it just because Gates refused to make it die (they wanted to kill it before arrival), he wanted one at homeJul 20 09:34
ThistleWebdidn't the superbowl try it for organising security?Jul 20 09:35
schestowitzThistleWeb: VIsta codebase I reckonJul 20 09:35
schestowitzFew appsJul 20 09:35
ThistleWebor am I thinking of something else?Jul 20 09:35
schestowitzDunnoJul 20 09:35
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schestowitz"Massive Job Cuts Coming At AOL? (at Barron's Online)"Jul 20 09:35
ThistleWebI'm sure they tried it along with a GPS for positioning of officers and crowd controlJul 20 09:35
schestowitzleguin.freenode.net fellJul 20 09:35
ThistleWebyeah, AOL deserve everything they get......speaking as am ex-customerJul 20 09:36
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ThistleWebthey are one of the worst companies on the planetJul 20 09:36
ThistleWebfor customer serviceJul 20 09:36
schestowitzI remember when they used to matter (AOL)Jul 20 09:37
ThistleWebalthough, plenty of current US companies seem to be aiming at AOL's low standards, judging by some of the stuff you hear aboutJul 20 09:37
ThistleWebwhen a company can rely on new shmucks replacing the old disatisfied ones, it's not good.......they also gradually run out of new shmucksJul 20 09:38
ThistleWeband nobody has fond memoriesJul 20 09:38
ThistleWebI love karmaJul 20 09:38
schestowitzWal-MartJul 20 09:38
schestowitzThey employed some dude who was here in IRC misbehavingJul 20 09:39
ThistleWebI've only been to one walmart, once, and it was fine for meJul 20 09:39
schestowitzThey also employ shillsJul 20 09:39
ThistleWebkJul 20 09:39
schestowitzEdelmanJul 20 09:39
schestowitzRed-MartJul 20 09:39
ThistleWebyeah I've noticed a few stories about their practicesJul 20 09:39
schestowitzWelcome to the national shop, comrade.Jul 20 09:39
ThistleWeba mate of mine works in the warehouse in one store, he's cool.....a linux mint guy tooJul 20 09:40
ThistleWebbut he's not his employerJul 20 09:40
ThistleWebwallmart do seem to draw ire for their treatment of employeesJul 20 09:41
ThistleWebwith working practices, wages, conditions etcJul 20 09:41
ThistleWebanything to cut costsJul 20 09:42
schestowitzMicrosoft has just found a replacement for "Mister Talking Points" http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/07-10-2009/0005058123&EDATE=Jul 20 09:42
schestowitzThistleWeb: also organisation against worker unionsJul 20 09:42
ThistleWebyepJul 20 09:42
schestowitzIt could be worse had they imposed Chinese factory working conditionsJul 20 09:42
schestowitzBUT...Jul 20 09:42
ThistleWebthey don't seem like a fair employerJul 20 09:42
ThistleWebfrom all I heardJul 20 09:43
schestowitzMuch of the stuff sold in Wal-Mart comes from such manufacturers in CHina, sometimes managed by American int he Empire State Building or soemthingJul 20 09:43
ThistleWebwelcome to the world of US consumerismJul 20 09:44
ThistleWebmake em cheap, sell em expensive, make hefty profitsJul 20 09:44
ThistleWebof course you dont waste money on employee rightsJul 20 09:44
schestowitz"Microsoft: A Sleeping Giant Ready To Rise Again?" http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/3352002 Rise with WHAT? XBox? Zune?Jul 20 09:45
ThistleWeblmaoJul 20 09:45
schestowitzThere's this delusion that Microsoft will make a comeback despite all the closures and layoffsJul 20 09:45
schestowitzWith profits down by a third the company hasn't much promised and they need to make VERY radical changes to get back where they wereJul 20 09:45
ThistleWebMS are going one way........they may have the occasional spasm along the way with a temporary blip, but it's all one way, and it's not upJul 20 09:45
schestowitzThey used to have an expensive Windows monopolyJul 20 09:45
ThistleWebthe real question is how fast MS goes downJul 20 09:46
schestowitzNot they have a $5/free/kickback/EDGI Windows monopolyJul 20 09:46
ThistleWebnot whether it's going downJul 20 09:46
schestowitzAnd Office moves to the Web... cause of GOogle and all...Jul 20 09:46
ThistleWebya know something, it's strange talking to youJul 20 09:46
schestowitzThistleWeb: another question is what replaces itJul 20 09:47
schestowitzGoogle/IBM can capture top positions in LinuxJul 20 09:47
schestowitzLike in CHrome and mainframes (IBM monopoly)Jul 20 09:47
ThistleWebwhen I think of some stuff I read somewhere, I forget that some of it I read from your RSS, which YOU WROTEJul 20 09:47
schestowitzThat's why I supported UbuntuJul 20 09:47
schestowitzWhich things?Jul 20 09:47
ThistleWebI was about to mention the corporate licences for office 2010, then I remembered I think I saw it on BNJul 20 09:48
schestowitz[I'm just scanning with my eyes about 1500 MSFT headlines as I type here]Jul 20 09:48
schestowitzLots about Office.. but it's old newsJul 20 09:48
schestowitzThey announced Office apps (online) or something... but Office Live goes back to about 2006Jul 20 09:49
schestowitzIt faield. The manager admitted to the press poor adoptionJul 20 09:49
schestowitzPeople think of GOogle Apps when it comes to online,... well, ANYTHING. They hardly know about Microsoft's cannibalisation attempt (live Office/Office Live)Jul 20 09:49
ThistleWebI know they've been thinking of that for a while, but the main issue that seems to keep holding them back is the determination to make the user experienvnce flawed for profitJul 20 09:50
schestowitzI thought they had sort of sropped "Live"Jul 20 09:50
schestowitzThey should call it "Office Bong"Jul 20 09:50
ThistleWebthey thought about a free (cost) version of installed office, but it'd be clogged with advertsJul 20 09:50
ThistleWeba few years backJul 20 09:50
schestowitzWith a splash screen of Ballmer smokin' dope before stage apparance"Jul 20 09:50
schestowitzYes, that vanishedJul 20 09:50
schestowitzMicrosoft Works with adsJul 20 09:50
schestowitzAnd EquiptJul 20 09:51
schestowitzEquipt is deadJul 20 09:51
schestowitzSince like 6 months agoJul 20 09:51
schestowitzAnother experiment was pay as you goJul 20 09:51
schestowitzIn India they wanted to sell pay-per-document/use cardsJul 20 09:51
ThistleWebMS remind me of the lil kid who see's a new toy and dont want it, until someone else picks it up and plays......then they step in like the bully and believe it's their right to have itJul 20 09:51
schestowitzLike int he old  days of punch cards and IBM machinesJul 20 09:51
ThistleWebWorks, yepJul 20 09:51
schestowitzThey never took off based on current affairsJul 20 09:51
ThistleWebthat was itJul 20 09:51
schestowitzMicrosoft FUDed Gogle Apps Jul 20 09:52
schestowitzIt still doesJul 20 09:52
schestowitzIts former employee did an 'analyst' firm that lied about Google AppsJul 20 09:52
schestowitzDid a black box 'study' to mock itJul 20 09:52
ThistleWebthey don't seem to have figured it out yet, MS are yesterday, Google are todayJul 20 09:52
schestowitzThen, Microsoft copies Google AppsJul 20 09:52
ThistleWebwho know who it'll be tomorrowJul 20 09:52
schestowitzAnd suddenly SaaS office is not a bad idea... cause Microsoft is now ready to compete years later.Jul 20 09:53
schestowitz[but only provided you use malware like IE and Silver Lie]Jul 20 09:53
*schestowitz uses Google to learn about MSJul 20 09:53
schestowitzWould you trust Bong News?Jul 20 09:53
schestowitzLike you would trust Bong search?Jul 20 09:53
schestowitzSearch for Ubuntu, see what comes up...Jul 20 09:54
schestowitzCOntrol freaks don't let bad news be known about the,Jul 20 09:54
ThistleWebI dunno if you noticed, but I actually took advice in one of your articles to heart and have been re-training my fingers when in IRC, or comments etcJul 20 09:54
ThistleWebMS instead of M$Jul 20 09:54
ThistleWebafter a long time of using M$ it's a hard habit to breakJul 20 09:54
schestowitzMicrosoft: A Sleeping Giant Ready To Rise Again? http://seekingalpha.com/article/148895-microsoft-cannibalizes-itself-in-fight-for-revenue?source=yahooJul 20 09:55
schestowitz[seen it 20 secs ago]Jul 20 09:55
ThistleWebbut your point is valid about appearancesJul 20 09:55
schestowitzOopsJul 20 09:55
schestowitzHeadline is; "Microsoft Cannibalizes Itself in Fight for Revenue"Jul 20 09:55
schestowitzSeeking AlphaJul 20 09:55
ThistleWebwhich brings me to the next point, maybe it's better for you to NOT intentionally misname MS stuff like silver lieJul 20 09:56
ThistleWebor vista 7Jul 20 09:56
ThistleWebit just gives ammo to the trolls who seek to derail youJul 20 09:56
notzedi keep thinking 'vista 7' now.  not that i ever have much reason to ever mention itJul 20 09:57
ThistleWebI've mentioned Vista 7 a couple of times in commentsJul 20 09:57
ThistleWebI don't think it helps, so I've stopped doing itJul 20 09:57
ThistleWebjust as I now make a point of saying MSJul 20 09:57
notzedwhy not?  that's what it is.  what's wrong with M$ anyway?Jul 20 09:58
schestowitzIs it really damaging?Jul 20 09:58
schestowitzIt's not as rough as SilverBlightJul 20 09:58
ThistleWebthe fight is vaild, but intentionally misnaming stuff does appear childishJul 20 09:58
schestowitzSome press linked to us showing that critics name it 'silver Lie"Jul 20 09:58
ThistleWebso let themJul 20 09:58
schestowitzVIsta 7 is a nice amusing thingJul 20 09:58
schestowitzIMHOJul 20 09:58
ThistleWebvista 7 is very apt, but still misnamingJul 20 09:59
schestowitzNothing aggressive about it, more drollJul 20 09:59
notzedwell i was a child when we were calling it 'winblows' and 'ibummers' from the amiga days, it's hard to drop, and i have no desire to either ;-)Jul 20 09:59
schestowitzTo keep consistent I'd have to stick with Vista 7. It spread to other sites and forumsJul 20 09:59
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 09:59
thenixedreportlolJul 20 09:59
schestowitzWInblows is strong languageJul 20 09:59
ThistleWebit's just a suggestion, I just took advice from one of your articles about M$Jul 20 09:59
schestowitzVista 7 is sort of funny... like ME2Jul 20 10:00
notzeddescriptive and apt howeverJul 20 10:00
ThistleWebthink of it as disarming the trolls, well at least one weaponJul 20 10:00
schestowitzXBorks is harshJul 20 10:00
schestowitzThistleWeb: the trolls have othr ammoJul 20 10:00
ThistleWebof course they do, but you can remove one from themJul 20 10:00
schestowitzThey can make some up by leaving comments or littering IRC, then citing it. I saw this before....Jul 20 10:01
schestowitzTo characterise trolls in the site as part of the 'community'Jul 20 10:01
schestowitzEnderle does that too... provoking to get vocal people curse him, then show those 'zealots'Jul 20 10:01
ThistleWebthey will still attempt to use it against you, but the more you restrain from doing it, the more hollow it sounds, and rebounds back on themJul 20 10:01
schestowitzWe still don't delete from IRC and commentsJul 20 10:01
notzedwell if you can't get worked up about losing your freedom, what on earth are you going to get worked up about?Jul 20 10:02
schestowitzNot even with the commenting policyJul 20 10:02
schestowitzCommenting policy is for account suspension, not comment deletionJul 20 10:02
schestowitzthenixedreport: what about Swindle?Jul 20 10:02
schestowitzOr Defective by Design?Jul 20 10:02
schestowitzBadVistaJul 20 10:02
ThistleWebso let themJul 20 10:03
schestowitzDigital Restrictions[sic] managementJul 20 10:03
thenixedreportIt's up to you whether you want to spoof the names or not.Jul 20 10:03
thenixedreportIt's fun, and I do it on occassion myself.Jul 20 10:03
thenixedreportHowever, I try to not to take it too far.Jul 20 10:03
ThistleWebI'm just saying that it may not be helpijng as much by intentionally misnaming stuffJul 20 10:03
Aondoi guess with vista 7, people fan of such stuff would go off and buy a mixer, vista7.com :PJul 20 10:03
thenixedreport@Thistle...Jul 20 10:03
thenixedreportMaybe...Jul 20 10:03
thenixedreportHowever, keep in mind that the other side does the same thing.Jul 20 10:04
thenixedreportLusers.Jul 20 10:04
ThistleWebespecially with the mainstream, who we WANT to get the message and start digging on their ownJul 20 10:04
thenixedreportRemember that one?Jul 20 10:04
ThistleWebthey do, yesJul 20 10:04
schestowitzWhat about "piracy"?Jul 20 10:04
ThistleWebwhen someone spots 2 peeps fighting, they don't know or care who started it, all they see is 2 sides fightingJul 20 10:04
thenixedreportConcerning "piracy" it depends on who you talk to.Jul 20 10:05
ThistleWebwhen one side is attacking, it's pretty obvious who the aggressor itJul 20 10:05
ThistleWebis*Jul 20 10:05
ThistleWebyou can only control the environment you controlJul 20 10:06
ThistleWebif others do something, let themJul 20 10:06
ThistleWeblet them give the mainstream ammo to paint them as crazy zealotsJul 20 10:07
ThistleWebwhile you get the message across in a mature wayJul 20 10:07
ThistleWebmature as in "not name calling"Jul 20 10:07
ThistleWebwho are the mainstream media more likely to take as a serious source?Jul 20 10:08
Diablo-D3hey royJul 20 10:08
Diablo-D3or whoever elseJul 20 10:08
ThistleWebthey are unlikely to just accept what you have to say as gospel, but it could be all the difference between actually reading a post all the way through, and following a few links.....or just closing the windowJul 20 10:09
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 10:09
ThistleWebwhich is the first step, second of course is getting what they find published without Waggner "educating" themJul 20 10:09
thenixedreportBtw.Jul 20 10:10
notzedmsm have their advertisers to answer to, it doesn't really matter how valid your argument is if it doesn't come with moneyJul 20 10:10
ThistleWebbut at least your part is doneJul 20 10:10
thenixedreportWhat Amazon did with 1984 on the Kindle was wrong.Jul 20 10:10
notzedor what language you useJul 20 10:10
thenixedreport1984 is under the public domain if memory serves correct.Jul 20 10:10
schestowitzMaybe they keep exetnding itJul 20 10:11
schestowitzFor music at least. I'm not very familiar with the whole saga of copyright extensionJul 20 10:11
Diablo-D3http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/06/27/rms-gets-it-wrong-c-and-net-suck-no-matter-whos-you-use/comment-page-1#comment-131282Jul 20 10:11
Diablo-D3feel free to fight the fudJul 20 10:11
schestowitzThis echoes oiaohm's arcgumentsJul 20 10:12
notzedhttp://gutenberg.net.au/plusfifty-n-z.html#orwellJul 20 10:12
schestowitzJITs are bloat. In some cases it's acceptableJul 20 10:12
*ThistleWeb has made the suggestion and is now dropping the usbjectJul 20 10:12
schestowitzBut Ubuntu must also fit old notebooksJul 20 10:12
schestowitzEvery drop count and you can't have Banshee, for example, running on some old laptopJul 20 10:13
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thenixedreportAccess Company Ltd.Jul 20 10:13
thenixedreportDoes the company's products incorporate Mono at all?Jul 20 10:14
schestowitzMicrosoft Removes Projectile-vomiting IE8 Ad From Web http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/167795/microsoft_removes_projectilevomiting_ie8_ad_from_web.htmlJul 20 10:15
schestowitzthenixedreport: I don't think so and that's beside the pointJul 20 10:15
thenixedreportOk.Jul 20 10:16
notzedthat was very bizarre.  like an advert made for `xbots' or the other converted.Jul 20 10:16
schestowitzDon't provoke sworn opponents of pro-Freedom sitesJul 20 10:16
thenixedreportOk.Jul 20 10:16
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 10:16
schestowitzMicrosoft had some ads pulledJul 20 10:16
schestowitzBy the ASA and other agenciesJul 20 10:16
schestowitzFor glamorisng violence and showing child sex (well, girl in a bumping car)Jul 20 10:17
schestowitzThat goes back a few years...Jul 20 10:17
schestowitzMaybe some other companies are equally tactless with their ads, I don't know...Jul 20 10:17
notzedthe sony psp-white or black or whatever it was advert was pretty tactlessJul 20 10:18
notzedbut if it came from japan, well they do have somewhat different sensibilitiesJul 20 10:19
schestowitzhttp://www.idreamoflinux.com/2009/07/microsofts-monopoly-crumbling.htmlJul 20 10:19
schestowitzOMGJul 20 10:19
schestowitzJoe Wilcox is backJul 20 10:19
schestowitzNow in BetaNews pimping MicrosoftJul 20 10:19
schestowitzhttp://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Microsoft-should-use-Twitter-data-theft-as-hosted-apps-marketing-FUD/1247765763Jul 20 10:20
schestowitzWatch what a proposalJul 20 10:20
schestowitzA call for Microsoft to FUD-attack GOogle et alJul 20 10:20
schestowitz"I'm a huge fan of guerrilla marketing." --Joe WilcoxJul 20 10:21
thenixedreporthttp://www.betanews.com/article/Media-goes-crazy-over-Amazon-deleting-1984-from-Kindle-but-99cent-ebook-was-illegal-copy/1247874134Jul 20 10:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] 11am rescheduled for 1pm. ARGH.Jul 20 10:40
schestowitz"Montana's ultra-posh Yellowstone Club is in new hands, following a $115 million deal that the new owner hopes will close the door on the resort's much publicized descent into bankruptcy." Montana resort for elite sold for $115 million http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Montana-resort-for-elite-sold-apf-2499028455.html?x=0&.v=5Jul 20 10:45
schestowitzOil Lifts Stocks as Madoff Sentenced < http://www.smartmoney.com/Investing/Stocks/Market-Update-Monday-Jun-29-2009-18849 >Jul 20 10:50
thenixedreportInteresting.Jul 20 10:52
schestowitzRecession sends Americans to the Internet: study < http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINBNG51534520090715?rpc=44 >Jul 20 10:58
schestowitzI've just sorted out my mail accountJul 20 10:58
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schestowitzStocks Up After Madoff's Sentence (at Forbes.com) http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/29/madoff-stocks-alcoa-markets-transcript-earnings.html?partner=yahootixJul 20 11:05
schestowitzFool.com: "Thursday - Amazon.com (Nasdaq: AMZN) and Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT) are two of the tech bellwethers reporting on Thursday.""Jul 20 11:10
thenixedreportI noticed a pattern lately.Jul 20 11:11
schestowitzAfter market close I think, and also before the weekend, to prevent too mush discussion of the massive failJul 20 11:11
thenixedreportWhen I made an argument concerning Mono, I started getting spam.Jul 20 11:11
thenixedreportMore and more of it.Jul 20 11:11
schestowitzE-mail spam?Jul 20 11:11
thenixedreportNo.Jul 20 11:11
thenixedreportComment spam.Jul 20 11:12
schestowitzAbuse or spam?Jul 20 11:12
thenixedreportAccording to the plug-in, it's spam.Jul 20 11:12
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 11:12
thenixedreportAnd in a different language.Jul 20 11:12
thenixedreportlolJul 20 11:12
schestowitzMaybe not elated (not probable to be related), but Mono criticism gets people angry... same group of people.Jul 20 11:12
schestowitzNothing to do with MicrosoftJul 20 11:12
thenixedreport:)Jul 20 11:12
schestowitzBut some people DO like MonoJul 20 11:13
thenixedreportI just thought it was hilarious.Jul 20 11:13
schestowitzByfield says Mono criticism started with BNJul 20 11:13
schestowitzHe mailed me to 'confirm'Jul 20 11:13
schestowitzBut it's not trueJul 20 11:13
schestowitzYou know why?Jul 20 11:13
schestowitzI think he wants to pretend that an anti-something site is all that's to do with Mono oppositionJul 20 11:14
schestowitz"Irrational haters"Jul 20 11:14
schestowitzFrom:   Homer <usenet@slated.org>Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz[Yesterday]Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz>> No wonder Miguel et al love them so much.Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz> Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz> Excerpted for clarity:Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz> Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz>> PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2768 Comes v. MicrosoftJul 20 11:15
schestowitz[...]Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz>> Do we have any pretense of cross-platform left? ;-)Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz> Jul 20 11:15
schestowitz> No.  Now the pretense is about being "open".Jul 20 11:15
schestowitzWhilst the Free Software traitors that they've employed to destroy theirJul 20 11:15
schestowitzenemy from within, peddle anti-dissent propaganda, by denouncing any andJul 20 11:15
schestowitzall dissenters as "black & white zealots", allowing Microsoft to pretendJul 20 11:15
schestowitzthey are somehow "the victim".Jul 20 11:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] RT @openrightsgroup we need some volunteer support from experienced Joomla developers!Jul 20 11:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Taipet Times About GNU/Linux as Superior Desktop Experience http://ping.fm/NTBhkJul 20 11:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Electronic Weekly: Linux Unlocks Innovation http://ping.fm/dFG2cJul 20 11:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nigeria-Brazil GNU/Linux Deal Signed http://ping.fm/UsHsGJul 20 11:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New York Times Says GNU/Linux is Inherently More Secure Than Windows http://ping.fm/nqekyJul 20 11:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Keyboard Has the Tux Key (Instead of Superkey) http://ping.fm/OYLkWJul 20 11:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quick Look at Sidux (GNU/Linux) 2009-02 http://ping.fm/h7G02Jul 20 12:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mandriva Linux One 2009.1 Second Edition Released http://ping.fm/wXXC2 My favourite desktop distroJul 20 12:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mozilla Reaches Out to Users for ideas http://ping.fm/gGdxWJul 20 12:13
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oiaohmI would like to see someone get warped and release a keyboard with all 48 function keys.Jul 20 12:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] The exploding Internet-> http://is.gd/1FbmmJul 20 12:23
schestowitzOr a typewriter with a SHIFT keyJul 20 12:23
*tacone registering in mono-nono forumsJul 20 12:24
HivenGlaventhey do create keyboards with all F keys on it, as less as mouse tablets for AutoCAD that has all the F functions mapped to it.Jul 20 12:24
oiaohmLinux does support keyboards with up to 48 function keys.  Nice and fun for terminals.Jul 20 12:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Priceless: USPTO Head Calls Patents a "20-year Monopoly" (So It's Officially a Monopoly) http://ping.fm/sC3ZBJul 20 12:26
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oiaohmhttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/19/2155223/WebKit-For-MetacityMutter-CSS-Theming  <<  Crossing fingers hope it goes threw.Jul 20 12:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IDG Rants About "Microsoft Goons" http://ping.fm/xYZWTJul 20 12:30
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at the Life of a Confirmed Microsoft AstroTurfer http://ping.fm/4JQcAJul 20 12:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Romania Admits 10-15% Revenue Decline (Not Just Profit) http://bit.ly/3CCldKJul 20 12:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IDG on Why "Microsoft's Profits are Tanking" http://ping.fm/hrWPvJul 20 12:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Plummets in People's Minds http://ping.fm/eVMVW http://ping.fm/nn7FO http://ping.fm/1QH6aJul 20 12:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme 20 jQuery Tutorials And Plugins To Impress Your Friends | Spyre Studios http://twurl.nl/ejsxewJul 20 12:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Bong Search Blocked http://ping.fm/RanQzJul 20 12:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Survey Unspun http://ping.fm/FPUA8Jul 20 12:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @schestowitz: Microsoft Bong Search Blocked http://ping.fm/RanQzJul 20 12:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Uses Vomiting to Advertise IE8, Changes Mind http://ping.fm/8W9kmJul 20 12:48
_Hicham_by the way IE8 will never support the <video> tagJul 20 12:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Online Office Suite an Exercise in Self Destruction http://ping.fm/xfuSTJul 20 12:50
taconeschestowitz: what about yesterday's down ?Jul 20 12:52
taconeddoss ?Jul 20 12:52
schestowitzXenJul 20 12:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Office Under Attack, Microsoft Fails to Deliver Patch http://ping.fm/R357DJul 20 12:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Wants to Do Exactly What it Forbade Google from Doing http://ping.fm/iv5NrJul 20 12:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] omoço agoraJul 20 12:54
taconehttp://mono-nono.com/bbpress/Jul 20 12:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Gates Foundation Shows Once Again That Its an Investment Firm (in Pharma Patents) Disguised as Tax-exempt Charity http://ping.fm/BBHRhJul 20 12:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New FCC Managing Director Comes from Convicted Monopoly, Microsoft http://ping.fm/xF7FaJul 20 13:04
oiaohmHmm IDG talking against MS that is interesting.Jul 20 13:15
taconei envy jason's synthesis skills http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/20/is-mono-free-software/Jul 20 13:23
Diablo-D3woah shitJul 20 13:23
Diablo-D3libjpeg has finally version bumped to 7Jul 20 13:23
Diablo-D3after being 6b since the DAWN OF TIMEJul 20 13:23
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fewahttp://www.libpr0n.com/Jul 20 13:55
desusfw?Jul 20 13:56
fewayesJul 20 13:56
desui lol'dJul 20 13:57
fewathat was actually the rendering library for mozilla http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/libimage/libpr0n.htmlJul 20 13:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] TestingJul 20 14:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Now listen here universe. Testing this here twirrsi malarky. No sillyness please.Jul 20 14:42
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oiaohmMozilla guys always have had sence of fun.Jul 20 14:50
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trmancololJul 20 14:51
trmancolibpr0nJul 20 14:51
schestowitzthere's libcacaJul 20 14:52
schestowitzQuite an important one, not like the name suggestsJul 20 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] libimg2 (aka libpr0n) Overview: http://is.gd/1FiDp :-P !firefox !mozilla #firefox #mozillaJul 20 14:53
trmancololJul 20 14:54
trmancolicaca...Jul 20 14:54
fewano link to http://libpr0n.com/ too?Jul 20 14:55
fewacause otherwise im sure its quite out of dateJul 20 14:55
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trmancohttp://www.moovida.com/Jul 20 14:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Moovida - the free open source media player for Windows and Linux: http://is.gd/1Fj1KJul 20 15:01
Balrogtrmanco: there's something screwy in libimg in linuxJul 20 15:02
Balroggraphics appear dithered rather than smooth, as in other operating systemsJul 20 15:02
trmancoah, stability -> "Failed to read a valid greeting from POP server pop3.live.com"Jul 20 15:02
*trmanco tries againJul 20 15:02
trmancostill failedJul 20 15:04
trmancowill try in a couple of minutesJul 20 15:04
trmancoor maybe hoursJul 20 15:04
schestowitzIt's patch Tuesday already?Jul 20 15:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @wordpresspt: New blog post: WordPress 2.8.2, também em Português http://bit.ly/BbSF8 || Já, muito bem então: -)Jul 20 15:05
Balrogschestowitz: that new photo app looks nice!Jul 20 15:07
Balrog(solang)Jul 20 15:07
trmanconoJul 20 15:08
trmancoin not pat of the world, I thinkJul 20 15:08
trmancopart*Jul 20 15:08
trmancojust some areas in the north pole I think :-PJul 20 15:09
Diablo-D3blah, 2.8.2 is out already?Jul 20 15:12
trmancohttp://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/07/19/outage-for-amazon-web-services/Jul 20 15:12
trmancoyeah, some security flawJul 20 15:13
trmancoin the commentJul 20 15:13
trmancosystemJul 20 15:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] LOLJul 20 15:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] @ this -> Tony: Meaning: Praiseworthy, of inestimable worth.Jul 20 15:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Signs of Microsoft on the Decline (Roundup) http://ping.fm/E72UyJul 20 15:38
wallclimbergood morning!Jul 20 15:38
schestowitzHi there.Jul 20 15:51
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wallclimber:)  I'm writing you an emailJul 20 15:52
trmancohttp://macslow.net/clips/notify-osd-with-all-new-rendering.ogvJul 20 16:01
trmancohttp://www.yetanothertechblog.com/2009/07/19/30000000-downloads-and-counting/Jul 20 16:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If Google Renamed, It Would Gain Another 80% Market Share < http://bit.ly/Z5bao >Jul 20 16:09
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @computerworlduk India to Create New Chip: Guess Which OS it's Using? - Open Source - ComputerworldUK http://is.gd/1F1t2Jul 20 16:18
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KrensoHelloJul 20 16:21
Krensoi read this http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/17/nessus-mono-analogies/Jul 20 16:21
Krensoand very few defend roy. What's happening whith this new comments systemJul 20 16:23
Krensoonly accusations of royJul 20 16:23
Krensoand nothing abouts statements included in postJul 20 16:23
Krensomake some policy of posting commentsJul 20 16:23
Diablo-D3wellJul 20 16:23
Diablo-D3we need a comment voting systemJul 20 16:23
Krensolike that: comments that do not inform about some statements of article will be deletedJul 20 16:24
Krensoi don't want to read roy boy of joyJul 20 16:25
Diablo-D3Krenso: seeJul 20 16:25
KrensoJust delete that shit, or put on the second pageJul 20 16:25
Diablo-D3censorship is for fagsJul 20 16:25
Diablo-D3this is what the mono assholes doJul 20 16:25
Diablo-D3its easier to let the community voteJul 20 16:25
fewaschestowitz, i dont see spin in that last linkJul 20 16:27
fewaits instead about fake hits from MSJul 20 16:27
schestowitzKrenso: I didJul 20 16:27
schestowitzI made a policyJul 20 16:28
schestowitzBut trolls can ban-evadeJul 20 16:28
schestowitzAnd the system gets gamed (rating system)Jul 20 16:28
schestowitzI prefer not to deleteJul 20 16:28
KrensoWhat about system with dynamic authorityJul 20 16:29
fewaimplament full-blown slash-code system :P lolJul 20 16:29
schestowitzBut known abusers can be treated appropriatelyJul 20 16:29
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fewaits free and open source softwareJul 20 16:29
schestowitzDiablo-D3: watch your language BTWJul 20 16:29
Diablo-D3actually royJul 20 16:30
Diablo-D3why dont you use slashcode?Jul 20 16:30
fewai believe i meant that as a jokeJul 20 16:30
Krensoyour comments will appear on frontpage if you get some level of points from actual admins, users with appropriate level of points?Jul 20 16:30
fewathe topic is not the commentsJul 20 16:30
fewaslashcode makes the comments the central partJul 20 16:30
Krensothe system where points travel up-to-bottomJul 20 16:30
Diablo-D3fewa: maybe they should beJul 20 16:30
fewaDiablo-D3, so the trolls run the site, no thanksJul 20 16:31
Diablo-D3I think BN needs to move to a more community focused modelJul 20 16:31
KrensoSlashcode? I havent't heard o itJul 20 16:32
schestowitzIt's no solutionJul 20 16:32
fewaKrenso, slashdot runs slashcodeJul 20 16:33
Diablo-D3schestowitz: we need less you running it, and more "us" running itJul 20 16:33
KrensoBut i didn't know their system is available for everyoneJul 20 16:34
fewahttp://www.slashcode.com/Jul 20 16:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Interpretation of the Windows 7 Survey http://ping.fm/ERDY4Jul 20 16:34
fewahttp://sourceforge.net/projects/slashcode/Jul 20 16:35
Krensothanks, i was wondering about implementing my own dynamc authority algorithmJul 20 16:36
Krensolike in diablo, it easy to get first levelsJul 20 16:36
Krensobut you could also fall down quickly with your authorityJul 20 16:37
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04Jul 20 16:38
schestowitzI doubt it can ever be policedJul 20 16:40
schestowitzIt's a hard task.Jul 20 16:40
schestowitzIf someone wants to disrupt, he or she willJul 20 16:40
schestowitzIt's the curse of writing about particular topics that some consider sensitiveJul 20 16:41
Diablo-D3slashcode has beem opensource for many many yearsJul 20 16:43
benJImanhttp://channel9.msdn.com/posts/NicFill/Microsoft-Contributes-Code-to-the-Linux-Kernel/ olde?Jul 20 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Mono Redefines Free Software http://ping.fm/cBzXeJul 20 16:51
fewabenJIman, was it merged?Jul 20 16:52
fewao wait today...Jul 20 16:52
fewa??Jul 20 16:52
fewahttp://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3403Jul 20 16:54
fewaohhhhh, its just hype around a MSFT virtualization driverJul 20 16:55
fewadoesnt help Linux at allJul 20 16:56
fewacept for maybe running on MSFT's virtualizationJul 20 16:56
Diablo-D3even that is in our favor.Jul 20 16:57
fewagpl2: "7.  If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertJul 20 16:57
fewainent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.Jul 20 16:57
fewaIf any portion of this section is held invalid or unenforceable under any particular circumstance, the balance of the section is intended to apply and the section as a whole is intended to apply in other circumstances.Jul 20 16:58
fewaIt is not the purpose of this section to induce you to infringe any patents or other property right claims or to contest validity of any such claims; this section has the sole purpose of protecting the integrity of the free software distribution system, which is implemented by public license practices. Many people have made generous contributions to the wide range of software distributed through that system in reliance on consistent applicJul 20 16:58
fewaation of that system; it is up to the author/donor to decide if he or she is willing to distribute software through any other system and a licensee cannot impose that choice.Jul 20 16:58
fewaThis section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License. "Jul 20 16:58
fewasry shouldnt have pasted thatJul 20 16:58
fewacould provide patent indemnification of the Linux kernelJul 20 16:58
fewaschestowitz, ?Jul 20 17:00
schestowitzHeyl.Jul 20 17:00
schestowitzHey,  what about it?Jul 20 17:00
fewahttp://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3403 http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/NicFill/Microsoft-Contributes-Code-to-the-Linux-Kernel/Jul 20 17:00
schestowitzI was just doing a batch of posts. MediaWiki was still down last night, so no Cite extension yetJul 20 17:00
schestowitzfewa: more spinJul 20 17:01
schestowitzLike their 'contributions' to other FOSSJul 20 17:01
schestowitzUsually some latch for Microsoft blobsJul 20 17:01
fewawell i pointed that outJul 20 17:01
schestowitzIf not alwaysJul 20 17:01
schestowitzLike SQL ServerJul 20 17:01
fewabut what about GPL2Jul 20 17:01
fewaclause 7Jul 20 17:01
schestowitzMicrosoft contributes to Linux like a pissing dog contributed to a drinking water wellJul 20 17:02
schestowitzBetter ask the SFLC or somethingJul 20 17:02
fewathey may not count as distrobuting the kernelJul 20 17:02
trmancoMicrosoft embraces GPL, opens Hyper-V to Linux with LinuxIC: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10290686-16.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20Jul 20 17:03
fewamore spinJul 20 17:04
schestowitzAlso in the commentsJul 20 17:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fresh OpenDocument Deception http://ping.fm/6IoWWJul 20 17:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fresh OpenDocument Deception http://ping.fm/p3VuPJul 20 17:15
Ng"embraces" is a bit strong ;)Jul 20 17:16
Ngthey need their virtualisation to work well with linuxJul 20 17:16
Ngand if it's in the kernel it ships in all distros and they can install out of the box well on MS virtualisation platforms, that's a win for MS and they can do it with some GPL driver code that isn't very interestingJul 20 17:17
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fewaNg, too close to "extinguish"Jul 20 17:21
Ngfewa: I don't think Microsoft can extinguish Linux or Free Software at this point :)Jul 20 17:22
fewaNg, agreedJul 20 17:22
fewabut they wish they couldJul 20 17:22
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fewaits really about making their product work decentJul 20 17:22
fewawhile being selective the otherway around: only helping xenrosoftJul 20 17:23
taconeuhm ? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/Jul09/07-20LinuxQA.mspxJul 20 17:23
taconei begin to think that windows will be ported to linuxJul 20 17:23
Ngerr no :)Jul 20 17:23
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taconeAdditionally significant is that we are releasing the code under the GPLv2 license, which is the Linux community’s preferred license.Jul 20 17:24
fewathe smartest thing for those at Microsoft would be to open source the whole thingsJul 20 17:24
taconeAnother area is product evangelism — engaging people to adopt our technologies.Jul 20 17:26
Diablo-D3wellJul 20 17:26
Diablo-D3I welcome microsoft releasing shit under the gplJul 20 17:27
KrensoHello againJul 20 17:27
taconegpl3 would have made them look sincereJul 20 17:27
fewaDiablo-D3, said it perfectly: shitJul 20 17:27
Diablo-D3it means one less fucked up product from them and one more thing we can fixJul 20 17:27
wallclimberHanrahan: "...Additionally significant is that we are releasing the code under the GPLv2 license, which is the Linux community’s preferred license."Jul 20 17:27
Diablo-D3tacone: cant, kernel is gpl2Jul 20 17:27
wallclimberIt seems to me that Microsoft like to pretend that GPL v.3 doesn't existJul 20 17:27
Diablo-D3linus wont let 3 into the kernelJul 20 17:27
fewaDiablo-D3, doesnt mean they can do gpl2+Jul 20 17:27
taconems is adopting gpl2 gpl because no they have control though patentsJul 20 17:27
fewa*can'tJul 20 17:27
Diablo-D3they released the kernel code under the kernel modified gpl2Jul 20 17:27
Diablo-D3the kernel is mildly patent unfriendlyJul 20 17:28
fewaDiablo-D3, Linux kernel uses the vanilla gpl2Jul 20 17:28
Diablo-D3fewa: noJul 20 17:28
Diablo-D3it has modificationsJul 20 17:28
Diablo-D3but I forget whichJul 20 17:28
Diablo-D3and Im too lazy to lookJul 20 17:28
fewaDiablo-D3, http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=COPYING;h=ca442d313d86dc67e0a2e5d584b465bd382cbf5c;hb=HEADJul 20 17:29
fewaie your full of shitJul 20 17:29
taconeContactJul 20 17:29
taconemailto:rrt@waggeneredstrom.comJul 20 17:29
taconeWaggener Edstrom WorldwideJul 20 17:29
tacone(503) 443-7070Jul 20 17:29
Diablo-D3oh right, now I rememberJul 20 17:29
taconeRapid response team ? lol !Jul 20 17:29
Diablo-D3"v2" vs "v2 or later"Jul 20 17:29
Balrogtacone: don't do thatJul 20 17:29
fewaDiablo-D3, thats not part of the licenceJul 20 17:29
taconewhat ?Jul 20 17:29
taconeBalrog: ?Jul 20 17:29
Balrogputting unobfuscated email addresses into what will become google indexedJul 20 17:30
taconehttp://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/Jul09/07-20LinuxQA.mspxJul 20 17:30
Diablo-D3if its already publically posted, sucks to be themJul 20 17:30
taconelook on the tihjyJul 20 17:30
taconerightJul 20 17:30
taconebtw okJul 20 17:30
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schestowitzThey issues a press releaseJul 20 17:39
schestowitzJust comes to show how they view itJul 20 17:39
schestowitzNot as a contribution as much as a self-serving patch AND PRJul 20 17:39
fewathe PR is so thin thoughJul 20 17:40
fewashows how in the pockets the media isJul 20 17:40
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fewatakes advantage of Linux Kernel vs GNU/Linux OS confusion to suggest that GPL2 is better (but claiming it is the developers words)Jul 20 17:47
fewaVirtualJul 20 17:58
KrensoHey, i thought out algorithm for authority:Jul 20 18:02
KrensoDisplay only 10% of all commentsJul 20 18:03
Krenso10% of highest points scoreJul 20 18:03
Krensoso displaying will change dynamicallyJul 20 18:04
KrensoIf you have 300 comments, display only 30 with highest scoreJul 20 18:05
Krensoother will be hidden, you have to click to view themJul 20 18:05
Krensobut there is authorityJul 20 18:05
KrensoIf someone diggs your comment, it will add so much points as the digger authorityJul 20 18:07
schestowitzThose who rank can game itJul 20 18:07
schestowitzYou're assuming that there is no malice among viewers of pagesJul 20 18:08
Krensobut your authority be boost by these points, not linear but with function like logarithmicJul 20 18:10
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Krensothis just idea, i will code it in php and show how it will workJul 20 18:10
KrensobyeJul 20 18:11
*Krenso has quit ("mIRGGI meni puis")Jul 20 18:12
trmancohttp://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/505092/30/0/threadedJul 20 18:15
trmancohey heyJul 20 18:15
trmancoit seems it's not only firefox with the problemJul 20 18:15
trmanco...Jul 20 18:15
schestowitzAnother payload comingJul 20 18:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reports About “Microsoft Goons”, “Microsoft Evangelists”, and Potential Moles http://ping.fm/6GM1SJul 20 18:25
macabeRoy, I screw up a comment "Goggle Renamed" posted in response to satipera. There was suppossed to be a comma between No and censorship. Is there anyway that can be fixed?Jul 20 18:32
schestowitzThe press just contacted meJul 20 18:38
schestowitzThey want a response from a 'hardliner' about MS and GPLJul 20 18:38
schestowitzmacabe: yes, hold on.Jul 20 18:39
schestowitzHehe.Jul 20 18:41
schestowitzPunctuation was crucial there :-)Jul 20 18:41
macabeChanges the whole meaning.Jul 20 18:41
macabeThanks. Will catch up on the daily linksJul 20 18:42
schestowitzHow's this for a statement?Jul 20 18:46
schestowitz"While it is commendable that Microsoft is no longer allergic to the GPL(v2), it ought to be strongly emphasised that this is the latest example (among others) where Microsoft submits an open source patch from which Microsoft Windows or another part of the proprietary Microsoft stack is to gain. Prior such examples were beneficial to SQL Server, for example. I would be more delighted if Microsoft decided to rescind its patent threaJul 20 18:46
schestowitzts, which it uses to suppress adoption of the very same kernel it purports to be contributing to."Jul 20 18:46
schestowitzAny errors/typos?Jul 20 18:47
Ngwhich companies provide open source patches that they aren't looking to gain from?Jul 20 18:49
*amarsh04 can't remember if one should say "among others" or "amongst others"Jul 20 18:49
schestowitzNg: I thought about thatJul 20 18:50
schestowitzBUTJul 20 18:50
schestowitzLook at it like thisJul 20 18:50
schestowitzMicrosoft uses WIndows against LinuxJul 20 18:50
schestowitzIBM does not use z series vs LinuxJul 20 18:50
schestowitzAnd Mandriva doesn't do it eitherJul 20 18:50
amarsh04just let me read the entry for among/amongst in "Modern English Usage"Jul 20 18:51
Ngschestowitz: I agree there's a spirit behind it that's a bit different, sureJul 20 18:51
schestowitzOKJul 20 18:52
schestowitzThey can't say no thoughJul 20 18:52
schestowitzThey must accept the patch pretty muchJul 20 18:52
schestowitzOK, reply sentJul 20 18:52
amarsh04amongst if the following word starts with a vowelJul 20 18:52
Ngrejecting the patch would be petulant and absurdJul 20 18:53
schestowitzAlso bad for PRJul 20 18:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Problems with Attempted Office Shift to the Web http://ping.fm/Te9iSJul 20 19:06
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sebsebsebhiJul 20 19:08
LnsMicrosoft embraces GPL, opens Hyper-V to Linux with LinuxIC - http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10290686-16.htmlJul 20 19:11
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schestowitzHi, sebsebseb Jul 20 19:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: hiJul 20 19:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: still doing the op thing :DJul 20 19:45
schestowitzLns: thanks, see my latest post about it. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/20/icahn-in-yahoo-ms-deal/ (I reused my response to IDG)Jul 20 19:46
schestowitzsebsebseb: I'd need to unregisterJul 20 19:46
fewaschestowitz, how about switch it into showing that they need open sourceJul 20 19:46
schestowitzNext time I enter IRC I won't registerJul 20 19:46
fewabut it doesnt help back ?Jul 20 19:46
sebsebsebschestowitz: no by default  I guess your coming op, but you can   /chanserv  deop  #boycottnovellJul 20 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Guess Who Inside Yahoo! Supports a Microsoft Deal? Microsoft’s Correspondent, Icahn http://ping.fm/lVUwgJul 20 19:46
MinceRor even /deop schestowitzJul 20 19:46
MinceRor /mode -o schestowitzJul 20 19:46
sebsebsebschestowitz: and   /chanserv op  #boycottnovellJul 20 19:47
_Hicham_why deop schestowitz ?Jul 20 19:47
sebsebseb_Hicham_: freenode guidlines that's whyJul 20 19:47
MinceR_Hicham_: he apparently doesn't want to wear itJul 20 19:47
sebsebseb_Hicham_: they recommend  people don't show op all the timeJul 20 19:47
MinceRi think those guidelines are a little broken, but whatever. :)Jul 20 19:47
schestowitzMinceR: thoughts?Jul 20 19:47
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to MinceRJul 20 19:47
MinceRschestowitz: also, iirc there are separate flags for op and autoopJul 20 19:48
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to _Hicham_Jul 20 19:48
schestowitzThere.Jul 20 19:48
schestowitzNow we're happierJul 20 19:48
MinceRso you can remove autoop without removing opJul 20 19:48
MinceRthanks.Jul 20 19:48
_Hicham_thanksJul 20 19:48
MinceR(autoop is op on join, of course)Jul 20 19:48
sebsebsebschestowitz: heh  your  like me, when  I   ran  a small channal,   wanted to show op all the time, but  the other guy  kept on going on about the freenoide guidlines, and deopping meJul 20 19:48
schestowitzsebsebseb: we don't misuse op powersJul 20 19:48
MinceRsebsebseb: you should have told him about services outages and netsplitsJul 20 19:49
schestowitzWe rarely moderate, unless there are obvious nysmshifting trollsJul 20 19:49
_Hicham_this channel is a an exceptionJul 20 19:49
schestowitzOr libelling ones as in yesterday (or both)Jul 20 19:49
_Hicham_we must have some basic protection against trollsJul 20 19:49
schestowitzBN has its own rules /sarcasmJul 20 19:49
sebsebsebschestowitz: http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtmlJul 20 19:50
sebsebseb_Hicham_: you can  use op powers when it's needed, you don't need to show it all the tiemJul 20 19:50
schestowitzIn over a year of being in the channel no-one ever complained about itJul 20 19:50
sebsebsebschestowitz: 5th sectionJul 20 19:50
schestowitzOver a year of opsJul 20 19:50
sebsebsebschestowitz: oh this channel has been here for a year?Jul 20 19:51
_Hicham_schestowitz is the king of opsJul 20 19:51
schestowitzsebsebseb: since June 2008 IIRCJul 20 19:51
sebsebseb_Hicham_: for this channel yeahJul 20 19:51
schestowitzSOmeone asked for it and created itJul 20 19:51
MinceR211046 [freenode] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Registered : Jun 02 10:12:35 2008 (1 year, 6 weeks, 6 days, 08:58:11 ago)Jul 20 19:51
MinceRit's at least that oldJul 20 19:51
*cabrey (i=47af6451@gateway/web/freenode/x-8ff3eac2cb9335dd) has joined #boycottnovellJul 20 19:51
sebsebsebcabrey: hiJul 20 19:51
cabreysebsebseb: hehJul 20 19:51
*schestowitz throws sparky bits of paper to celebrate a belated 1-year anniversaryJul 20 19:52
MinceR:)Jul 20 19:52
sebsebsebif I become not liked here or something, blame cabrey :D   since I found out about this channel from himJul 20 19:52
sebsebsebMinceR: do you think they should show op all the time or not?Jul 20 19:53
MinceRi think it's better to have them on all the timeJul 20 19:54
sebsebsebMinceR: why?Jul 20 19:54
fewahow about  "While it is commendable that Microsoft is no longer allergic to the GPL(v2), this is not the first time Microsoft has presented a patch from which Microsoft Windows or another part of the proprietary Microsoft stack is to gain. (Prior such examples were beneficial to SQL Server, for example.) I would be more delighted if Microsoft decided to rescind its patent threats, which it uses to suppress adoption of the very same kernelJul 20 19:54
_Hicham_so that the trolls can't dare to start trollingJul 20 19:54
fewait purports to be contributing to."Jul 20 19:54
MinceRsebsebseb: for one thing, if chanserv goes down or gets lost in a netsplit, you have a way to moderate the channelJul 20 19:55
MinceRalso, it's easier and quicker that way in all casesJul 20 19:55
fewayou cant "strongly emphasize" something you are deemphasizingJul 20 19:56
MinceRand i prefer openness about this sort of thing anywayJul 20 19:56
fewaschestowitz, SYNJul 20 19:58
sebsebsebschestowitz: A little while ago now, but I read that your site got broken in to,  what  was all that about?Jul 20 19:59
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MinceR(and by "easier and quicker" i mostly mean "no need to fumble about with ChanServ commands while kiddies are flooding your channel to oblivion" :> )Jul 20 19:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Uses Diplomats to Train Children for Windows http://ping.fm/COR8mJul 20 20:01
schestowitzfewa: trueJul 20 20:16
schestowitzsebsebseb: are you here to help us?Jul 20 20:17
schestowitzThe last time someone complaint about IRC etiquette here was a year ago and it was SUSE cop benJIman Jul 20 20:18
schestowitz*ComplainedJul 20 20:18
sebsebsebschestowitz: oh I seeJul 20 20:18
sebsebsebschestowitz: ,but  yes  was trying to help/suggestJul 20 20:18
sebsebsebheh spys from Novell/Suse :DJul 20 20:19
sebsebsebschestowitz: I  am from the Ubuntu community,  well started with Fedora Core 2 and 4 and no IntenretJul 20 20:19
sebsebsebsince stupid wireless device, then been with Ubuntu since second release,   last two weeks or so here and there, I been vming loads of stuff, trying to find another distro,  but haven't really had much luckJul 20 20:20
sebsebsebschestowitz: not a proper Ubuntu community member, but  helped out quite a lot in there channel and suchJul 20 20:20
sebsebsebI wanted to switch to Fedora 11, but  got a  error message that said it was probably a bug, when I tried to install :(Jul 20 20:21
sebsebsebschestowitz: and I don't like  OpenSuse's   weird  menu,  worse than   KDE 4'sJul 20 20:22
sebsebseboh I kind of spammed/fooded here whoopsJul 20 20:22
MinceRthat's not really the problem with *suseJul 20 20:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Chakalaka [HQ] - Whippenberg" ♫ http://blip.fm/~aan9xJul 20 20:22
MinceRespecially considering that it's optional, iircJul 20 20:22
sebsebsebfooded?  flooded aboveJul 20 20:22
fewaschestowitz, you should contribute to ubuntu through debianJul 20 20:23
fewareduce duplication of effortJul 20 20:23
sebsebsebMinceR: I was here last night,   they gave some reasons  for the   reasons why Novell aren't likedJul 20 20:23
MinceRokJul 20 20:23
schestowitzsebsebseb: thanksJul 20 20:24
sebsebsebfewa: I was going to vm Debian, but then it was like,  where  exactly am I downloading it from etcJul 20 20:24
schestowitzsebsebseb: see topics int he siteJul 20 20:24
schestowitzMain theme is MS going into OSS and LinuxJul 20 20:24
schestowitzHostile intersections, Novell being a bridgeJul 20 20:25
schestowitzSee main page (Wiki)Jul 20 20:25
schestowitzTHat ought to explain the extended scopeJul 20 20:25
fewasebsebseb, http://www.debian.org/distrib/Jul 20 20:25
sebsebsebpersonally, because of my age and everything,   I  dislike  Microsoft a lot more than Novell  (I know I know, it's Mono, but  I like Banshee and to some extent F-Spot),  however to be fair  some Microsoft programs are good, untill they ruin them,  for  example Wordpad and Paint were nice and keep it simple stupid,  but  then in Windows 7,    Wordpad is lilike  a  cut down version of   Word 2007,  and  PaintJul 20 20:28
sebsebseblike   Paint .NET ,but not as goodJul 20 20:28
sebsebsebNotepad is a great Microsoft apps, one of the best, no jokeJul 20 20:28
trmanco?Jul 20 20:28
Balrogsebsebseb: it's a weak text editor thoughJul 20 20:28
trmancowordpad is better than thatJul 20 20:28
Balrogone of the weakest I've seen, comparing to 'pico'Jul 20 20:29
sebsebsebNotepad is still good for coding HTMLJul 20 20:29
trmancoit's crapJul 20 20:29
sebsebsebGedit or Kate  :)   maybe I should learn Emacs  :D  ,but  I don't program anything at the moment,   as for VI and such got quite a learning curve reallyJul 20 20:30
Balrogvim :)Jul 20 20:31
sebsebsebyep my VI and such  included vimJul 20 20:31
trmancotry doing indented html in notepad++ and then open it up in notepad, all the code is unindented and forced to fit in half the linesJul 20 20:31
sebsebsebnotepad++  is not native to LinuxJul 20 20:31
trmancoI use netbeans for web developmentJul 20 20:31
Balrogit's just a small handful of commands that you learn fast. now emacs has a learning curve :)Jul 20 20:31
trmancosame as notepadJul 20 20:31
trmancoand it is a big oneJul 20 20:32
sebsebsebtrmanco: well last time I did HTML coding it was with geditJul 20 20:32
Balrognano / pico is probably the closest to notepadJul 20 20:32
Balrogand geditJul 20 20:32
sebsebseb,but if I was in Windows, I would use notepadJul 20 20:32
trmancoI would use notepad++Jul 20 20:32
Balrogsebsebseb: hrm no. I usually use vim or notepad++Jul 20 20:32
Balrogthough vim is betterJul 20 20:32
sebsebsebno Internet Explorer 8 with Windows  7 in Europe, or is it? hmm     I mean the OEM's could put it in?Jul 20 20:36
BalrogprobablyJul 20 20:36
trmancoany news about hotmails pop access being offline?Jul 20 20:37
Balrogyou won't be able to upgrade to vista7 though in EuropeJul 20 20:37
sebsebsebBalrog: yeah I know clean installsJul 20 20:37
trmancohey cool, MinceR is opJul 20 20:38
MinceRindeedJul 20 20:38
sebsebsebwhich  can be a good thing,  since  get rid of some malware on certain peoples computers, when they clean install etcJul 20 20:38
sebsebsebschestowitz: where are the logs?Jul 20 20:39
trmancosebsebseb, the logs are on bnJul 20 20:39
sebsebsebtrmanco: yeah, but I am wondering where,  and no I haven't gone on the site recentlyJul 20 20:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] IT PRO’S SPEAK ON LINUX! & LINUX ON THE SHELVES AGAIN! - http://tinyurl.com/l7nsax #linux #ubuntu #xp #windows #microsoft #vista #7Jul 20 20:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Philanthropic Investments in Massive Chains of Retailers http://ping.fm/PZ3hFJul 20 20:43
trmancosebsebseb, -> http://boycottnovell.com/category/irc-logs/Jul 20 20:44
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MinceRwell, that didn't last :>Jul 20 20:46
BalrogMinceR: what happened?Jul 20 20:47
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Omar87Hi there.Jul 20 20:47
MinceRi dropped off freenodeJul 20 20:47
Balrogand lost ops?Jul 20 20:48
Balrog:(Jul 20 20:48
MinceRirssi says it didn't get pong repliesJul 20 20:48
Omar87Any new troll attacks? :DJul 20 20:48
MinceRyupJul 20 20:48
Balrogwhy doesn't schestowitz give you auto-ops?Jul 20 20:48
MinceRi wasn't around to see anyJul 20 20:48
MinceRdunnoJul 20 20:48
trmancololJul 20 20:48
trmancopingJul 20 20:48
trmancopingJul 20 20:48
trmancopingJul 20 20:49
Omar87lol!Jul 20 20:49
trmancoc'mon pong!!!111!Jul 20 20:49
Omar87I enjoyed yesterdays argument with Lefty. :pJul 20 20:49
trmancosee logsJul 20 20:49
sebsebsebhmm those logs show the hostnames,  I am not so keen on that,   also I like the way Ubuntu do their  HTML logs,  with  the time stamps and such :)Jul 20 20:50
trmancowohooJul 20 20:50
trmancoit pongedJul 20 20:50
trmancoPing reply from wolfe.freenode.net: 0.59 second(s)Jul 20 20:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "When Love Takes Over (Official) - David Guetta feat. Kelly Rowland" ♫ http://blip.fm/~aaputJul 20 20:53
*Received a CTCP PING 1248120947 108496 from _Goblin (to #boycottnovell)Jul 20 20:55
trmanco_Goblin, did I pong :-PJul 20 20:56
trmanco?Jul 20 20:56
schestowitzOmar87: don't feed him, pleaseJul 20 20:56
Omar87schestowitz: lolJul 20 20:58
twitterthere's not much left to say to leftyJul 20 20:59
twitterhe's clearly maliciousJul 20 20:59
Omar87schestowitz: I'm not feeding, man. I just enjoyed his idiocy, lol. ;)Jul 20 20:59
twitterhe does not believe the things he says, he's pumping for dirtJul 20 21:00
twitterit is better to ignore the manJul 20 21:00
twitterhe's not here to learn or teach, only to harassJul 20 21:00
tessierschestowitz: We may have to look into further optimizing mysql. It should not be using 100% of a cpu all the time for no more traffic than this blog is getting.Jul 20 21:01
trmanco2) Apache set up ("httpd.conf"): I've changed these various settings, and played with them until theyJul 20 21:02
trmanco   seem to keep the most "idle %" reported in "top".Jul 20 21:02
trmanco   MinSpareServers 10Jul 20 21:02
trmanco   MaxSpareServers 20Jul 20 21:02
trmanco   StartServers 70Jul 20 21:02
trmanco   MaxClients 255Jul 20 21:03
schestowitztessier: heyJul 20 21:03
trmancohttp://www-css.fnal.gov/dsg/external/freeware/mysqlTuning.htmlJul 20 21:03
trmancomaybe that will helpJul 20 21:03
schestowitzI need you around... WordPress security updateJul 20 21:03
schestowitzI'll probbaly do it easily cause it's a very minor updateJul 20 21:03
schestowitztwitter: please don't talk about trollsJul 20 21:04
trmancoit migh be only a fileJul 20 21:04
schestowitzThanks in advanceJul 20 21:04
trmancolet me checkJul 20 21:04
twitterOKJul 20 21:05
trmancohttp://core.trac.wordpress.org/logJul 20 21:06
trmancoit more than a fileJul 20 21:07
trmancoit's*Jul 20 21:07
tessier_hm...even though the db is busy the page still loads fast. Nice.Jul 20 21:08
trmancoyeahJul 20 21:08
trmancotakes a little time to respond thoughJul 20 21:08
schestowitzI can sense the differenceJul 20 21:09
schestowitz:-)Jul 20 21:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft ‘Takes Over’ the FCC http://ping.fm/AKfo9Jul 20 21:09
twitterFCC?  Not good.  They will use that control to mess TV whitesapce up.Jul 20 21:11
twitterWhite space use is a good idea.  Trust M$ to turn it to their advantage and no one else's.Jul 20 21:12
twitterOh yeah, cable regulation will go nowhere too.Jul 20 21:13
twitterLeaving the last mile controlled by abusive monopolies.Jul 20 21:13
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Chips_B_MalroyHello everyoneJul 20 21:16
trmancohiJul 20 21:18
Chips_B_Malroytrmanco, its so quit here today, thats niceJul 20 21:18
Chips_B_Malroy*quietJul 20 21:18
trmancololJul 20 21:18
trmancodon't make too much noise, or it might get noisy againJul 20 21:19
Chips_B_MalroyokJul 20 21:19
MinceR"watch out now kids, that rain is wet!"Jul 20 21:19
Chips_B_MalroyI forgot who I was talking to the other day, here about encoding or rather converting files.  But WinFS I just got, its a awesome front end to ffmegJul 20 21:20
BalrogWinFS ?Jul 20 21:21
Chips_B_Malroyyes, on mepislovers site there are people who backport newer deb to a community repo,  they just did WinFSJul 20 21:22
_Goblinhi chips!Jul 20 21:23
trmancowinFF you mean :-PJul 20 21:23
trmancoI use that and ogg convertJul 20 21:23
Chips_B_Malroyyou can batch convert in the (yes winff) gui by select and holding down the shift key, using the arrow keyJul 20 21:24
Balrogwinfs is the M$ vaporware filesystem :PJul 20 21:25
Chips_B_Malroysorry about the WinFS (the vaporware M$ file system) it should have been WinFFJul 20 21:25
Balrogit's all right :PJul 20 21:25
Chips_B_MalroyHi GoblinJul 20 21:26
schestowitzMS mole pings me https://twitter.com/jlundstocholm/status/2737928679Jul 20 21:27
schestowitzI always ignore himJul 20 21:27
Chips_B_Malroyonly thing I don't like about WinFF is it makes the files too big, its set for highest quality I thinkJul 20 21:29
Chips_B_Malroybut since they small files to start with, I can live with itJul 20 21:30
Chips_B_Malroymust be late on the far side of the pond?Jul 20 21:36
Chips_B_MalroyBTW, Roy and others, if I seemed hard on Shane about his comment on "Yanks," it was more of a joke, and cover, as I wanted at that time for Lumpy to think I might be on his side.  I thought Shanes statement was funny actually.  Same goes with the statements I made about Miguel.  Both were wastedJul 20 21:39
schestowitzHe does not know exactly what goes onJul 20 21:42
schestowitzHe hasn't kept track recentlyJul 20 21:42
schestowitzI brought him up to date this afternoonJul 20 21:42
schestowitzSo his apathy to trolls may change fastJul 20 21:43
Chips_B_Malroynice to see some of the trolls gone.Jul 20 21:43
Chips_B_Malroyon your rules page, you say that you "suggest" that they post a disclaimer if they work for company xJul 20 21:44
schestowitzeditJul 20 21:45
schestowitzit's a wikiJul 20 21:45
Chips_B_MalroyI would change that to "must" and add its the lawJul 20 21:45
Chips_B_MalroyI would also add that at your discretion you may or may not delete or move posts made by those who get bannedJul 20 21:46
Chips_B_Malroytake away there soapboxJul 20 21:46
Chips_B_MalroyAnd for the ones that are only here to support the trolls, ban them too, the first time.  They easy to tell who they areJul 20 21:47
Chips_B_MalroyYou doing a great job, its sad to see mean people trying to put a hole in your workJul 20 21:48
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BalrogChips_B_Malroy: I'd argue that posts made by trolls should be highlighted in redJul 20 21:49
Chips_B_Malroysorry I clicked on wrong thingJul 20 21:50
Chips_B_MalroyBalrog:  better to remove the post from public view, take away the soapboxJul 20 21:50
Chips_B_MalroyBest trick I know is to not delete the account, and let them keep posting but have the comments go to a special folder that only the administrator can seeJul 20 21:51
Chips_B_Malroyso they waste there time more that wayJul 20 21:52
MinceRor roll it into a line they can click to see the postJul 20 21:52
MinceRthen they have no base to whine about censorship :>Jul 20 21:52
Chips_B_MalroyMinceR:  why give the Troll any exposure?Jul 20 21:52
MinceRi wouldn'tJul 20 21:52
MinceRbut i've heard such concernsJul 20 21:52
Chips_B_Malroythey break the rules, what can they expect?Jul 20 21:53
MinceReven the "special folder" could be /dev/null :>Jul 20 21:53
Chips_B_MalroyMinceR, I starting to like the way you thinkJul 20 21:53
MinceR:)Jul 20 21:53
BalrogMinceR: make a special folder and set it up so they can see the comments but no one elseJul 20 21:56
MinceRthat would probably work better than /dev/nullJul 20 21:56
Balrogthough rolling a line is better, or just hiding it with a slashdot-style 'get more comments' button, maybeJul 20 21:56
Chips_B_MalroyBalrog, or maybe have it say that the "comment" is being held for "review"Jul 20 21:57
Chips_B_MalroyMS Watch used to do thatJul 20 21:57
Chips_B_Malroywhich meant, unless you complained, and even sometimes if you did, that comment was unlikely to ever be postedJul 20 21:58
MinceR:)Jul 20 21:58
Chips_B_Malroythe more you can waste the trollers time, automatically the betterJul 20 21:59
wallclimberPssst (wallclimber is whispering so as not to interrupt the conversation), Roy, I just sent you the last of three emails - three more Comes exhibits transcribed :)Jul 20 22:03
schestowitzwallclimber: excellent, thanks a lot!Jul 20 22:04
schestowitzI'm still having backlog issues with many posts I want to makeJul 20 22:04
wallclimberHappy to help!Jul 20 22:04
wallclimberOh, so many posts, so little time... lolJul 20 22:04
schestowitzYeah. Next one is massiveJul 20 22:05
wallclimberat least you have them ready to go when you need themJul 20 22:05
schestowitzBeen postponedJul 20 22:05
schestowitzDue to endless trollingJul 20 22:05
schestowitzWaste of time that was...Jul 20 22:05
schestowitzCould have done lots of Comes insteadJul 20 22:05
schestowitzwallclimber: yes, I keep em "sticky" (the Comes queue)\Jul 20 22:05
wallclimberi'm sure it makes them happy to have delayed more comes postingsJul 20 22:06
wallclimberbut they can't delay foreverJul 20 22:06
wallclimber*delay you* I meanJul 20 22:06
wallclimberokay, i'm going to stay logged in, but i have to do some work too...Jul 20 22:08
wallclimberlet me know if there's anything more to doJul 20 22:09
schestowitzThanks. Maybe around the WikiJul 20 22:11
schestowitzThere's 'gardening' to do there with "categories", missing texts, descriptions of exhibits, etcl.Jul 20 22:11
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taconeBN down ?Jul 20 22:23
schestowitzNot sureJul 20 22:23
schestowitzJust overloadedJul 20 22:23
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schestowitzWe have two cores assigned to it nowJul 20 22:23
schestowitzDespite requiring registration we still get many commentsJul 20 22:24
sebsebseboiaohm: hiJul 20 22:29
schestowitzYou know each other?Jul 20 22:30
sebsebsebnot exactlyJul 20 22:30
sebsebseb,but  talked to him last nightJul 20 22:30
schestowitzsebsebseb: I'd send you the python script to hack on if you wish. To remove host names.Jul 20 22:30
schestowitzOK. oiaohm is prolific on the Web..Jul 20 22:30
sebsebsebschestowitz: well  the HTML file itself can be edited  I am thinking, and re uploadedJul 20 22:30
schestowitzToo much without automationsJul 20 22:31
schestowitzNeeds a filter in Python, applied to raw logsJul 20 22:31
schestowitzThe notion of address is not thereJul 20 22:31
schestowitzIt's just a string of text in system messageJul 20 22:32
schestowitzAnd I don't code in python, so I didn't botherJul 20 22:32
oiaohmHi schestowitzJul 20 22:33
oiaohmI did not think I was that prolificJul 20 22:33
sebsebsebschestowitz: sure send/upload it, I don't code in Python either,  but  I got someone that is learning,   who  may be able to do itJul 20 22:33
taconehttp://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/p1020114.jpg wow really ?Jul 20 22:34
oiaohmHmm I am head towards 6000 entries in google.Jul 20 22:34
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schestowitztacone: yes, there's a photo gallery from that event. Adults tooJul 20 22:48
taconeniceJul 20 22:48
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oiaohmhttp://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/20/1643251/Microsoft-Releases-Linux-Device-Drivers-As-GPL <<   HmmJul 20 22:58
taconeyup, gpl2Jul 20 22:58
taconethat's for they're ms hypervisor technologyJul 20 22:59
taconetorvalds has won.Jul 20 22:59
tacone'if ms ever does linux software I wonJul 20 22:59
neighborleehm ;)Jul 20 23:00
oiaohmI not sure it stands a chance.Jul 20 23:01
taconechance ?Jul 20 23:01
schestowitzMicrosoft will employ Linus to help out ;-0Jul 20 23:01
oiaohmvmware xen kvm and lguest have been working on an standard from of hybervisor calls.Jul 20 23:01
oiaohmxen and vmware customs have been hitting brick walls and both have been gpl v2.Jul 20 23:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Microsoft Stung, Microsoft’s Troll Speaks to Facebook, Alternatives Considered http://ping.fm/oFTYJJul 20 23:06
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_Hicham_hi schestowitzJul 20 23:08
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schestowitzping tessier Jul 20 23:13
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oiaohmhttp://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/07/company-denies-its-robots-feed-on-the-dead/  Great war machine robots that will not get flat battery.Jul 20 23:15
oiaohmExactly what we did not need.Jul 20 23:15
schestowitzWow. Autmatic upgrade works well on another hostJul 20 23:19
schestowitzOn BN's server it doesn'tJul 20 23:19
schestowitzMore oddly I try to make mysql backups now to no avilJul 20 23:20
schestowitzI guess I'll do it laterJul 20 23:20
trmancomaybe you haven't configured ftp in wordpressJul 20 23:22
schestowitzOhJul 20 23:22
schestowitzWhere?Jul 20 23:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : is it cron related ?Jul 20 23:22
schestowitz_Hicham_: noJul 20 23:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : then what error message do u get ?Jul 20 23:23
schestowitzoh f*Jul 20 23:23
schestowitzNo wonderJul 20 23:23
schestowitzI run as rootJul 20 23:23
schestowitzI assign file to root userJul 20 23:23
trmancoweirdJul 20 23:24
trmancoI might have confused this ftp config thing with some other scriptJul 20 23:24
taconethat's because it's rootJul 20 23:24
neighborleeoiaohm, ewww ;)Jul 20 23:24
taconeif wordpress can't write it can't auto upgradeJul 20 23:24
taconethat's good for security btwJul 20 23:25
schestowitztacone: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090719/1555285596.shtml (Italy Proposes Law To Force Bloggers To Take Down Content Claimed To Be 'Defamatory')Jul 20 23:26
trmancoeishJul 20 23:26
taconeschestowitz: they made a mega lawJul 20 23:26
schestowitzServer is so loaded that I wonder if I should u/g in the morningJul 20 23:26
schestowitztacone: mega pacage...Jul 20 23:27
taconeit forbids intercepting phones, internet defamation, hip hop wall painting and so onJul 20 23:27
schestowitz*Telecom packageJul 20 23:27
schestowitzMicrosoft V7 family pack..Jul 20 23:27
schestowitzOne for the dog too.. BobJul 20 23:27
taconeit's like getting 20 dic*s in your ass all at onceJul 20 23:27
_Hicham_tacone : lolJul 20 23:28
taconeit's fascism getting realJul 20 23:28
taconewe're ahead of franceJul 20 23:28
taconein 15 years, sarkozy's france will look like italy.Jul 20 23:28
taconeonly putin's russia is worse of usJul 20 23:29
schestowitzWith Putin, country libels blog !Jul 20 23:31
schestowitzI suppose you know about assassinated bloggersJul 20 23:31
schestowitzKilled by the policeJul 20 23:31
cubezzznot sure if you folks have seen this one, looks interesting:Jul 20 23:33
cubezzzhttp://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/opinion-death-knell-heard-for-microsoft-and-really-all-proprietary-efforts-20090626/Jul 20 23:33
oiaohmNot really a death nail to all proprietray efforts.Jul 20 23:36
schestowitztessier.."?Jul 20 23:36
oiaohmDeath nail to lock out proprietray methods.Jul 20 23:36
oiaohmHmm amarok is reaching out to palm.Jul 20 23:38
schestowitzMy problem seems commonplace... http://wordpress.org/support/topic/223144?replies=12Jul 20 23:42
schestowitzProbably server settings relatedJul 20 23:42
schestowitzMaybe needs php4Jul 20 23:43
schestowitzOops. 5Jul 20 23:43
schestowitzpropaganda language from the MSBBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8159560.stmJul 20 23:43
schestowitzKazaa is back from the dead  http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1468942/kazaa-deadJul 20 23:48
oiaohmKindaJul 20 23:48
oiaohmIts not going to be a illegal traders home again.Jul 20 23:49
sebsebsebhttp://cgwalters.livejournal.com/24767.html   to do with the Windows brand, and  certain users not reolizing what is Microsoft's fault and what isn'tJul 20 23:49
schestowitzI hope the legitimate torrents still have a place leftJul 20 23:49
schestowitzLike Linux ISOs Jul 20 23:49
schestowitzTHe issue is the perception that sharing is badJul 20 23:49
schestowitzAll sharingJul 20 23:49
mikankunwma+drm makes them still deadJul 20 23:49
mikankunno way they're going to make any moneyJul 20 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Amazon does not ban 1984 http://ping.fm/JwcvdJul 20 23:50
schestowitzI'm not a p2p userJul 20 23:51
schestowitzBut some people (few) might use it for fair exchange that's legalJul 20 23:51
schestowitzFor torrent and FOSS that's truly the caseJul 20 23:51
sebsebsebfree open source software hmmJul 20 23:51
sebsebsebwellJul 20 23:51
sebsebsebthe thing with that isJul 20 23:51
schestowitzAnd if people wanted to download songs, then they could rip em off YouTubeJul 20 23:52
sebsebsebopen source this that and the other,   hardly ever people say free software,   and open source and free software not the same thing according to Richard StallmanJul 20 23:52
sebsebsebI am still not enitrely sure the difference,  but  I think it's to do with commercial branding and suchJul 20 23:52
schestowitzI rarely say FOSSJul 20 23:52
schestowitzBut some FOSS is not FSJul 20 23:52
schestowitzLike ApacheJul 20 23:52
mikankunthe apache license is considered a free software license according to the fsfJul 20 23:53
sebsebsebFree  Open Source Software,   free as in price with the code being open,  that would be a better  definition.   Free Software is the confusing one,  since most people will think of price,   Free Libre Software could be better.    but to most people free means  free as in priceJul 20 23:53
sebsebsebnot free as in freedom  with source code being available to the general public,  in fact most computers don't really know anything about that, which is also a problemJul 20 23:54
sebsebsebmost computer users aboveJul 20 23:54
schestowitzDell partner CIT dodges bankruptcy http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/07/20/dell_cit_redhat/Jul 20 23:54
mikankunwell there is the term FLOSSJul 20 23:54
schestowitzmikankun: good to know, thanklsJul 20 23:54
schestowitzmikankun: sameJul 20 23:54
schestowitzFree/LibreJul 20 23:54
sebsebsebmikankun: Free Linux Open Source Software?   Free   Libre  Open Source Software?Jul 20 23:55
schestowitzJust the sameJul 20 23:55
mikankunfree libreJul 20 23:55
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sebsebsebto the average computer user, free libre software, woudn't really mean anything to them thoughJul 20 23:55
schestowitzDepends whoJul 20 23:55
schestowitzMaybe in America it wouldJul 20 23:55
schestowitzNot the nothJul 20 23:55
schestowitz*northJul 20 23:55
mikankunI never use. I always just say free software.Jul 20 23:55
schestowitzThey have awareness of foreign occupationJul 20 23:56
schestowitzI used to say open source years ago before it went out of controlJul 20 23:56
schestowitzMS OSI... CPAL...Jul 20 23:56
LnsHow about "Community Developed Software" ?Jul 20 23:59

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